Questions must be asked of Fergie - Manchester United Forums

sparkic

28-04-2008, 10:44 AM

Chelsea 2-1 Manchester United

Just for once, the questions need to be asked of Manchester United boss Sir Alex Ferguson rather than his Chelsea counterpart Avram Grant.

On a day when the Premier League title race could have been put to bed once and for all, the most respected coach in the history of the English game committed the sort of error that would lead to calls for a lesser man to be sacked. Make no mistake, the finger of blame for this potentially devastating defeat should be pointed at United's legendary manager.

There was a collective gasp around the Stamford Bridge press room when the team sheets were digested, with the absence of Cristiano Ronaldo, Carlos Tevez and Paul Scholes a surprise on a day when so much was at stake.
Ferguson gave a hint that he was preparing for a defeat in his pre-match television interview by suggesting his side's superior goal difference could make all the difference in the final analysis, but the sparkling team who have long been tipped to win this league presented their chief rivals with an open goal before a ball had been kicked.

United would hardly relish the idea of heading to a crumbling pitch at Wigan in two weeks time needing a win to claim their tenth Premier League title, but the selection he made for this game gave Chelsea all the encouragement they needed to defy the doubters and reclaim the Premier League crown wrestled from their grasp last May.

With Chelsea fastest out of the blocks, the nervous nature of United's defending early on suggested the likes of Rio Ferdinand and Nemanja Vidic were a little wary of the task they had been saddled with by their manager and when they latter of that duo was stretchered off with concussion after he clashed with Didier Drogba after just 13 minutes, their self-inflicted troubles merely multiplied.

As Chelsea poured forward, the home side were sensing blood and the opener so nearly arrived when Cole crashed a shot against the crossbar with Edwin van der Sar well beaten.

The goal they threatened for so long finally arrived as Drogba floated a cross into the path of Michael Ballack and his header was guided past Van der Sar with all too much ease. The agitation on the United bench in front of us in the press box was all too evident as they fell behind, while Avram Grant and his Chelsea staff were celebrating as if they had won the league itself.

The quality of the United starting eleven was the major talking point as the growing number of journalists who indulge in a couple of large glasses of red wine mid-way through their working day gathered for a summit and even without some of their star names, the questions had to be asked of the players Fergie had sent into battle for this mammoth match.

Michael Carrick, Anderson, Darren Fletcher and Nani are all paid big money by United to play in games of this stature, yet their first half display was not that of players who belonged at this level, so it needed some of the famed Ferguson's hairdryer treatment to raise his troops for the second half.

Whatever he said in the dressing room adjacent to the wine swilling hacks, it seemed to work as United emerged for the second half with renewed energy and once Wayne Rooney equalised after Ricardo Carvalho's howling error with 57 minutes on the clock, it seemed as if Ferguson was going to get away with his team selection.

Then the title race was blown wide open again as the ineffective Michael Carrick handled in the box five minutes from time and Ballack kept a cool head to blast home the goal that leaves United with no more wiggle room.

'There is no way I could have played the same eleven that started at Barcelona on Wednesday night,' argued a defensive United boss. 'The travel takes something out of you and we have to keep one eye on the return game this coming Tuesday. It's not too far away don't forget. I have spoken all year about the quality of the squad I have here and they had to respond when we needed them.

'A penalty decision has cost us in the end, but our goal difference has always been a massive plus for us. We came here with a team good enough to get a proper result, but we move on now.'

The celebrations around Stamford Bridge suggested the Chelsea fans believe a title party will be on the agenda when the final day of this Premier League season is over, but Avram Grant is always a good man to dose the flames of joy and he did just that with his latest dour press conference.

'We did what we needed to do,' said Grant, again displaying all the personality of a stale jelly bean. 'We won the game against Manchester United and it puts them under pressure. I'm very proud with what we are doing this season. We have now won big games against Arsenal and United, which shows great character. We also showed we can play good football despite what everyone says.

'I have to believe United will crack, or else there is no point in being in this game. It will not be easy for them to win the two games they have left when all the pressure is on their shoulders.'

It's a good job that Avram Grant's team have shown a brighter side than their depressing manager in the last few weeks, yet the Israeli bore could just end up as a Premier League title winner after this momentous victory.

Could it be that Alex Ferguson is contemplating finishing what looked set to be great season without a trophy by the end of next weekend? Should such a shocking scenario become reality, United's celebrated boss will only have himself to blame.

MAN OF THE MATCH: Michael Ballack
Goals are all that matter in games of this magnitude and Ballack was so cool with the two chances that came his way. His late penalty was a touch of class.

WHERE'S ROMAN? Speculation was rife in the press room that Chelsea owner Roman Abramovich has fallen out of love with his Stamford Bridge play thing and his absence from this massive clash did little to dose those rumours.

INSIDER OPINION: The Premier League need to look at their fixture list and ensure a high profile game like this is not scheduled for the week of a major Champions League game. Not only does the schedule affect the quality of their league, it also harms the hopes of English teams in Europe.

HANDBAG BOYS: Didier Drogba and Michael Essien played out something of a pathetic squabble and they argued over who would take a second half free-kick. Drogba often strikes you as the kind of guy you need to suck up to in a bid to avoid him throwing a tantrum.

FOOD WATCH: Another early kick-off demanded the full English breakfast and Chelsea delivered in style to a packed press room.

VERDICT: If momentum counts for anything in this title race, then Chelsea are on course for the most improbable of triumphs. United dare not do anything but beat West Ham and Wigan in their final two games.

Source: http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story?id=529298&root=england&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab1pos2&cc=3436

I agree with this article from espn...it was Fergie's choice of team which lost us the game and maybe will lose us the title...tactics was correct, choice of players - WRONG! :mad:

futbol

28-04-2008, 11:17 AM

Fergie are u listening ? :mad: :o ? eh ? Yes he needs to answer. but he will against barca an important match we need to win. He was resting players with barca in mind at the home leg. H ewanted ronnie fit. but i don agree with change of tactics at such an important stage of season.... very well....

desmondo

28-04-2008, 12:00 PM

I can see what Fergie is trying to do and resting players is important but personally I think the cost is too great. In high level sport confidence , momentum and winning habits is everything. The psychology is all wrong. I would sooner have 11 tired players against Barca who had just won the league and were full of confidence due to playing good football than 11 players who were fresh but have lost their confidence, form and momentum. Arsenal took the FA CUP game lightly and lost 0-4 , they never really recovered their fluency and look what happened to their season. I've not even mentioned the effect it has on the crowd at OT. OT will be buzzing but also nervous when they could have been celebrating. I think Fergie may have dropped a clanger. I hope I'm utterly wrong.

(Edit: From RD: what is the point of requoting the entire initial post, just to make a small comment beneath?)

reddwarf

28-04-2008, 12:02 PM

I wasn't surprised we made changes for the game against Chelsea but I was surprised by the personnel that were changed. To leave our top 2 goal scorers on the bench was puzzling but I thought Anderson and Giggs would start, which they did.

We were 6 minutes away from getting a result that would virtually have ended the title race. Chelsea had to win that game and, with a bit of help from the referee's assistant, they did.

I was hoping to avoid a stressful, nail-biting, nerve-wracking end to the season but that's exactly what we've got.

yangch0000

28-04-2008, 12:34 PM

desmondo

28-04-2008, 01:02 PM

6 minutes less in the chelsea match, we wont have so many threads in the forum right now.
think before u blame the manager, he trusted his squad to perform against chelsea and i believe the team he sent out for the cheslea match has the ability to get the result we wanted. they just did not perform well enough.
Sorry mate , I have felt this way about the tactics since the first half against Arsenal. The fact that we nearly pulled it off doesn't change things. Results are sometimes poor indicators of good or bad tactics. True , if we had won 4-0 then there would be no threads on negavity but that's not the point. My feeling about the Chelsea penalty was that it came because we were sitting back playing for the draw. When teams put the ball into your box often enough you run the risk of a pen. (which is what happened). Once we had a go at them we created 2 great chances in 5 minutes and Chelsea spent less time in our box. Why do you think United have conceded so few goals at OT? It's because it's very very hard to concede a goal when you are in the oppositions half much of the time.

sparkic

28-04-2008, 01:18 PM

Red Devil

28-04-2008, 02:01 PM

Sparkic: Be aware that Getty Images are not marked as copyright for nothing. Your head is on the block if they complain.

versa

28-04-2008, 03:22 PM

A few of the latest new threads are all basically expounding on the same theme ie Fergie's questionable selection and his negative approach.

I think it can all be nicely summarised as follows:

If you don't play to win, there can only be two possible results; either a draw or a defeat. There are no three ways about it unfortunately. And if you don't even aspire to win games, you will win nothing at the end of it all. As simple as that. Please do remember that every victory boosts confidence and builds momentum too.

Fergie is probably the best manager in the land by past track records. But that does not automatically translate into him being divine or flawless and thus every decision he makes must be right and no question should be dare asked. I would beg to differ on the last two games loudly and unambigiously.

Yes, we are better off at OT than at Nou Camp for sure. But maybe people forgot about this rule called the Away Goal rule. And now that Barca has sacrificed their Depor game and rested almost the entire squad, can you now say that our advantage is as big as we would like to make it out to be? That only makes me painfully wonder what if we had just played a 'normal' game with an 'acceptable' desire to score a priceless away goal. If we could not, just too bad; well and fine. But we did not even try and so will it come back to haunt us?

And for the game at Stamford Bridge. Why did we have to contain when we just attacked, won back the iniative lost in the first half and scored? Why didn't we capitalise on the momentum built to seek the winning goal(s) to rudely break Chelski's home record and seal the EPL title there and then? Why turned negative to contain instead? Yes, you have to ask Fergie. Didn't he pledge to break the record before the game? Did he chicken out or knowingly tell us a big fat lie?

And please don't tell me it is all part of his Grand Plan or the Big Tease. Why is he not smiling then?

I am disappointed that after the game, all I hear is Queiroz and Fergie blaming on the referee and Giggs blaming on luck. These are all futile and a waste of time. I am also disappointed no staff or player said the ugly truth, which is we did not even endeavour to play to win.

I don't care what others may think; it is my most honest opinion and I don't owe it to anybody to say something 'politically correct' just to be 'accepted' as 'wise'. I am actually terribly sick and upset.

I hope Fergie will wake up his ideas now since he has already thrown away whatever leeway or buffer we had - we have to absolutely play to win for the next three, four games in a row now. Not even breathing space allowed. What fer make it so damned laborious for ourselves?!

Let's turn on the style and salvage some of our ruined reputation for the so-called "attractive brand of attacking football" please. Giving the ball incessantly throughout the game at Nou Camp and swiching to preserve the scoreline instead of going for the jugular to finish off Chelski are definitely not our hallmark.

Think the entire staff and players do owe the fans for it. Think especially of our poor but loyal fans who had to dig into their pockets, brave the distance and hostilities, sing their voices hoarse against 96,000 home fans but just to witness us conceding possession cheaply and repeatedly from start to end for the entire game?

Oh, come on!!

Forever_United

28-04-2008, 03:57 PM

I couldnt agree with you more there versa. you read my mind, well said ! :)

Edit: By Carly ... Another one who reproduces a huge post - to respond with one line. Unnecesary ;)

desmondo

28-04-2008, 05:03 PM

versa said........"A few of the latest new threads are all basically expounding on the same theme ie Fergie's questionable selection and his negative approach.

I think it can all be nicely summarised as follows:

If you don't play to win, there can only be two possible results; either a draw or a defeat. There are no three ways about it unfortunately. And if you don't even aspire to win games, you will win nothing at the end of it all. As simple as that. Please do remember that every victory boosts confidence and builds momentum too. etc etc ................"

DESMONDO reply-- Fergie has always said that United have a track record of making things difficult for themselves , so maybe he thought it was his turn to chip in .

sharafanta7

28-04-2008, 05:09 PM

i wasn't surprised Manchester United lost 4 two reasons:

1] Ronaldo didn't start (he hardly played)

2] Chelsea haven't lost at the bridge for 101 games...

carlyluvsunited

28-04-2008, 05:16 PM

Red Devil

28-04-2008, 05:18 PM

i wasn't surprised Manchester United lost 4 two reasons:

1] Ronaldo didn't start (he hardly played)

2] Chelsea haven't lost at the bridge for 101 games...

3. United played like they were not going to do anything about it either.

manutd004

28-04-2008, 06:06 PM

I've said since that thread about risking losing to Chelsea opened that we should play our strongest team against Chelsea. It would mean we would have a better chance of winning (obviously) and if we did, we would have clinched the title, gone on to the Barca game with great confidence and we could of rested the necessary players against West Ham and Wigan for the CL final.

But as carly says, he knows better than us. If we win the CL or double, his decision will have been justified and I'll admit even more that I was seriously wrong. ;).

Anyway, I was gonna start a new thread to post this article I found of Football365 (or Liverpool365 :rolleyes:) but I guess this thread is right to post it in.

I've even posted the comments from regular visitors to the site.

================================================== ========

Ferguson Has Himself To Blame, Not Refs
Posted 26/04/08 19:28

It's understandable, even desirable, that managers speak with passion and in 'the heat of the moment' after big games.

It keeps us all entertained after all, but Alex Ferguson and Carlos Queiroz's ludicrous rants after their weakened team was beaten by Chelsea went beyond entertainment.

Manchester United's management team continued the great managerial practice of latching on to what they perceive to be refereeing slights to cover their own and their team's inadequacies.

Ferguson and Queiroz seem to be just paranoid enough to blame the failure to beat either Chelsea or Barcelona on a series of penalty decisions.

Consider Ferguson's appraisal of the penalty given for Michael Carrick's clear handball:

"The ball was going to Rio (Ferdinand) anyway. The boy has not lifted his hands above his body. It hit his hand, I accept that, but to give that kind of decision in a major game like that."

Exactly what relevance does the size of the game have? Or whether the ball was going towards his own player? The translation of his statement seems to be 'How dare the referee give a penalty against Manchester United.'

That isn't a criticism from a man who harps on about 'respecting' referees - it's a smokescreen.

United didn't win against Chelsea because they put in a limp performance and left two of their best players on the bench. Ferguson defended his selection by claiming fatigue on the part of his top men, but in doing so he threw away their best chance of beating Barcelona next week.

This result will leave their belief damaged. Had they won with a full-strength team they would have taken the confidence of knowing the title was wrapped up into the second leg against Barcelona.

Ferguson and Queiroz sought to extend the conspiracy to the failure of the referee in Spain to bow to their wishes. Again, their lack of success there was not down to suspect refereeing, but due to a craven and cowardly team selection against a Barcelona side that was there for the taking.

The Catalans had won just once in eight games, their captain and best defender was missing and their fans are currently a misplaced pass away from mutiny. If United had put out a side that was in any way attacking they could have killed the tie in the first leg.

The spectacle of Ferguson attempting to deflect attention from his own mistakes is a little like Cristiano Ronaldo's diving - they are clearly the best men in their fields, so why on earth do they need resort to underhand tactics?

This is a man who prides himself on being able to out-think and intimidate fellow managers. He has been at the top of English football for 20 years. He's won the league nine times. He's brilliant, but why can he so rarely admit his mistakes?

He did so after the first leg of the Champions League quarter-final against Roma, admitting that he should have changed tactics earlier than he did. However, it was easy to admit his wrongs then - his side had just won.

If Manchester United somehow contrive to come out of this season empty handed, then their fans only have one man to blame, and it certainly isn't Alan Wiley. It's Ferguson himself.

Nick Miller

shout
"has anyone stopped to think why Sir Alex might be slightly annoyed in their last two PL games they have had penalties turned down not remember Boro when the defender comes flying out with his hands raised no pen, and again at Blackburn Emerton moved his hand towards the ball but no pen, albeit he should be more composed but i can understand the frustrations it would make my blood boil if i was a paying fan, player or manager was it not Mr Wiley that refused a boro penalty against Bolton for an almost identical incident last week!!! these refereeing inconsistentcies don't help matters especially at the business end of the season And don't forget no matter how much better Chelsea played Man U were only 4 mins away from going into the Barca game with the league tied up and a fresh Ronaldo, Tevez and Scholes. It's a game of fine margins!!! "

mancrepublik
"I have long suspected that Arsenal fans are cretins.This has just been confirmed by londongooner. 4-0, 2-1 mate."

highlandpaddy
"Fergie hasn't changed since he was manager of Aberdeen whinging about West of Scotland refs being biased against his team (didn't stop them winning everything) Great manager - yes Great man - no."

Macbeth
"Folk say that Alex Ferguson is good for football, although I have serious doubts about this, but he is certainly an uneducated, uncouth, gum chewing, sour faced thug who is totally incomprehensible because he hasn't learnt to speak properly and my view has nothing to do with him being the Manager of Man U; he's just an ignorant bully and the sooner he leaves the better for football. I am ashamed to be a Scot. Shut up Fergie."

leecarps
"Good ol' hindsight, it never fails to make analysts look like geniuses does it. If United had held out for a draw everyone would be proclaiming Fergie to have won the league while resting some of the troops for an attack on the Champions League midweek as well. Were Ronaldo, Tevez and/or Scholes carrying knocks? We'll probably never know. What I do know is Fergie is a far better football manager than any of us can ever hope to be and a few so called United fans shouldn't be giving the greatest manager we will ever have stick for a couple of percieved selection errors."

gunnerglory
"It was a horrible tackle. It will take a miracle for Eduardo to come back from this."

seedysanchez
"What I want to point out to everyone is that week in and out I've watched loads of different managers rant about the ref, every single season. Generally in my opinion Fergie is one of the few who will actually say yeah fair enough I didnt agree with the refs decision but we should've done better. shame he didnt this time. Also i admit that Wenger has sometimes too although it pains me to say it because I hate Arsenal!"

circaeternal
"Man United Managers and players complain to much when things dont go their way.We have to stop sugar-coating it by saying it is a winning mentality.It is a whinning and whingeing ability that is so immature.Man united had series of penalties against middlesborough,arsenal-the equalizer-(and Gallas did not have his hands raised neither!!!),against mighty Barcelona at the camp nou.Frank Rijkaard did not question why a referee would give a penalty in a game like that."

demon301074
"United season ticket holder, at this moment in time it's hard to admit that! Saturday def pen, fergie can moan all he likes but does not change the fact that poor team selection was the contributing factor to the loss. Our form of late has been lacking draws at Middlesbrough and Blackburn, have shown this. Our season is threating to full apart, fergie has taken his eyes off the ball and is watching the officials instead. If we lose tuesday and the prem fergie and the team will only have themselves to blame. In 3 weeks hopfully I will be eating my words However, not a great weekend work in fergies rein. "

paul9705
"Okay I am a United Fan, and I am responding to nick millers silly post "Ferguson Has Himself To Blame, Not Refs" ? Okay first of all let me say that Chelsea deserved to win the game on Saturday. However picking up on the following point by mr miller who says, "Manchester United's management team continued the great managerial practice of latching on to what they perceive to be refereeing slights to cover their own and their team's inadequacies." Okay theie own teams inadequacies ? Lets see, Utd have scored the most goals, have conceeded the least amount of goals, have won the most games, reached the semi final of the FA cup, are in the champions league semi final, and top of the premiere league with 2 games to go, have a player who has scored 38 goals, and the player of the year for the second season running, errrr yeah really sounds like my team have massive inadequacies. What a silly statment. Also all managers and teams harp on about referee's, every week, this is not a problem exclusive to man utd, grant, wenger, benitez have all had there rants throughout the season. Also mr miller says, "The spectacle of Ferguson attempting to deflect attention from his own mistakes is a little like Cristiano Ronaldo's diving - they are clearly the best men in their fields, so why on earth do they need resort to underhand tactics? " With regards ronaldo's diving, and about him being the best man in his field for diving, what a joke, have you never seen drogba, especially against liverpool, the amount, and the way he dived was an absolute disgrace, going down like he was shot every time. No sir Drogba is by far the worst. "

desmondo

28-04-2008, 06:12 PM

Journalists and posters on here can criticise Fergie, and his tactics or his team
selection whatever. They have a right to voice their opinions.

What really annoys me, and has done for years, is the fact that when Fergie
proves them wrong and he goes on to glory ... he wins, again ... and they all join
in the celebrations and bathe in the glory ... not one of them ever has the grace
to stand up and say "Well fair play to Fergie, I was wrong and he sure as hell
made me eat my words".

Journalists are a disgusting breed !!!

But I guess they have to write something, it's their job after all !

I personally think Fergie has put great faith in his players recently. Some have let
him down but I know they haven't done it on purpose. This team that was
chosen to play Chelsea has been criticised by journalists worldwide. But if Fergie
had got the draw from it, they would have said "Oh well, this is to expected from
United".

Don't forget that this team, which everyone now considers to be wrong, tactically
incapable of doing the job and blah, blah, blah was just 6 minutes away from
getting a point and all but sealing the Premiership for us. It took just one
unfortunate (maybe dubious) penalty decision to turn all that on it's head - and
make Fergie look bad !!!

I have faith in Fergie. He is the epitomy (?) of success. He's the best that ever
walked this earth ... and we must now win 4 more games to grab a remarkable
double of Champions League and Barclays Premiership.

I don't feel I have the right to criticise this guy - EVER - I just have too much
respect for him ... There is a very fine line between success and failure in his
job ... he has walked that line for 23 years now ... and I have no complaints
whatsoever about Fergie or anything he does !
I don't think Fergie is the kind of guy who is so fragile he has to surround himself with "yes" men who wouldn't criticise. I think he's the main man and I wouldn't swap him for any other manager on earth but if ever a club gets to the point where the truth cannot be said and someone is above criticism then we are in trouble. I think Fergie would welcome the criticism . I'm not criticising him per se I just think he's not got the balance right at the moment. Fergie himself would never say that he is above criticism . I think he would find that highly patronising and offensive. Of course people like myself will celebrate if fergie pulls it off but that would not neccessarily mean we were wrong . Sometimes teams succeed anyway despite poor tactics , it's known as luck.
Just because people who think like me can see some of the cracks doesn't mean we aren't 100% behind the team. Anyone who knows football can see that Fergie has underchieved in the CL. All I want is for him to not betray the traditions he has set up at the club or abandon the effective , attacking football that brought us this far. Every sportsman and manager has their achilles heel and becoming over cautious when the heat is on in Europe is fergie's.

carlyluvsunited

28-04-2008, 06:25 PM

Desmondo ...

I see what you say ...

But I think any criticisms should be brought up IF AND WHEN he fails ...

Not now ... with 4 games still left to play and all to play for.

If he wins both - or just one - of the trophies still available to him, then these can
be seen as minor hiccups. If he wins nothing, then maybe he has made glaring
errors !

But to judge the man BEFORE he has completed the job is madness !

I liked the comment on the article above ... says it all really ...

shout

"has anyone stopped to think why Sir Alex might be slightly annoyed in their last
two PL games they have had penalties turned down not remember Boro when
the defender comes flying out with his hands raised no pen, and again at
Blackburn Emerton moved his hand towards the ball but no pen, albeit he should
be more composed but i can understand the frustrations it would make my blood
boil if i was a paying fan, player or manager was it not Mr Wiley that refused a
boro penalty against Bolton for an almost identical incident last week!!! these
refereeing inconsistentcies don't help matters especially at the business end of
the season And don't forget no matter how much better Chelsea played Man U
were only 4 mins away from going into the Barca game with the league tied up
and a fresh Ronaldo, Tevez and Scholes. It's a game of fine margins!!! "

fazman

28-04-2008, 06:33 PM

why have question got to be asked were top of the league and in a european semi final is this another crazy fan who knows nothing

-zuco-

28-04-2008, 06:39 PM

why have question got to be asked were top of the league and in a european semi final is this another crazy fan who knows nothing

He is entitled ot his opinion, you don't have to be confrontational :rolleyes:

fazman

28-04-2008, 06:40 PM

He is entitled ot his opinion, you don't have to be confrontational :rolleyes:

ahh!!!!!! zuco leave it be

Jazz 16

28-04-2008, 06:47 PM

Journalists and posters on here can criticise Fergie, and his tactics or his team
selection whatever. They have a right to voice their opinions.

What really annoys me, and has done for years, is the fact that when Fergie
proves them wrong and he goes on to glory ... he wins, again ... and they all join
in the celebrations and bathe in the glory ... not one of them ever has the grace
to stand up and say "Well fair play to Fergie, I was wrong and he sure as hell
made me eat my words".

Journalists are a disgusting breed !!!

But I guess they have to write something, it's their job after all !

I personally think Fergie has put great faith in his players recently. Some have let
him down but I know they haven't done it on purpose. This team that was
chosen to play Chelsea has been criticised by journalists worldwide. But if Fergie
had got the draw from it, they would have said "Oh well, this is to expected from
United".

Don't forget that this team, which everyone now considers to be wrong, tactically
incapable of doing the job and blah, blah, blah was just 6 minutes away from
getting a point and all but sealing the Premiership for us. It took just one
unfortunate (maybe dubious) penalty decision to turn all that on it's head - and
make Fergie look bad !!!

I have faith in Fergie. He is the epitomy (?) of success. He's the best that ever
walked this earth ... and we must now win 4 more games to grab a remarkable
double of Champions League and Barclays Premiership.

I don't feel I have the right to criticise this guy - EVER - I just have too much
respect for him ... There is a very fine line between success and failure in his
job ... he has walked that line for 23 years now ... and I have no complaints
whatsoever about Fergie or anything he does !

Excellent post and its exactly how I feel. All the moaners are out as usual:rolleyes:
saying Fergie did this and that wrong blah blah etc etc......I would have done
this and played x and y, as if they are more qualified than Fergie.
These people make me laugh and to a small degree disgust me.

Everyone is up in arms after a few games of not winning.
can I remind these people that these games were in Ewood park, the Nou Camp
and Stamford Bridge, arguably some of the toughest places to get a result in
World football. There is no shame in not winning in these stadiums.

As you mentioned above we were 5 mins or a dodgy penalty away from
effectively winning the Prem, and now people are saying Fergie hasnt a clue :rolleyes:

We are STILL top of the Prem, in a great position, we are STILL in the semi's
of the CL also in a very good position.

Threads like these not only **** me off, but should at least be posted AFTER
the next few games if we happen to muck them up and lose but we havent
lost anything yet.....

Have some faith ffs and show some support......
Some of you are so ungrateful......and the funny thing is, is that this could be
a HUGE season and yet everyone is ****ed off with 'tactics' :confused:
Some people wouldnt know a tactic if it bit them in the arse, and no its not
those little green and orange sweets either :rolleyes:

but its ok, if we win on tuesday and we beat West Ham, we can all celebrate
together and we can all forget how you doubted the master that is Fergie.

Actually no, Ill gladly dig these threads out after we have won some silverware,
and remind all you doubters of the harsh words you wrote.

If everything falls to pieces and we lose out in both trophies, Ill admit I got
it wrong and apologise. But Ill never doubt Fergie and my support for United
will never wane.

Apologies if this may seem a bit harsh and is offensive to some, but Im in a rush,
have had a crap day and this subject rightly gets on my wick. ;-)

fazman

28-04-2008, 06:51 PM

I wish I could of put it like you jazz instead I lost my temper again must learn to control my temper when mourons post rubbish

carlyluvsunited

28-04-2008, 07:06 PM

i wasn't surprised Manchester United lost 4 two reasons:

1] Ronaldo didn't start (he hardly played)

2] Chelsea haven't lost at the bridge for 101 games...

Hmmm....

So every single game Ronaldo plays in ... we win !!!

That's what you imply here.

Sadly, we do lose when he plays ... so point number one ... BUSTED !!

Chelsea haven't lost at the Bridge for 101 games ...

Therefore Chelsea WILL NEVER lose at the Bridge ... is what you imply ...

They will ... obviously.

So point number two ... BUSTED !!

Maybe you WERE surprised they lost ... and now look to point the finger of blame.

Davey

28-04-2008, 07:09 PM

I wish I could of put it like you jazz instead I lost my temper again must learn to control my temper when mourons post rubbish

Yeh, try not to get carried away mate, us UTD fans all know the score!

moondog

28-04-2008, 07:20 PM

OK people, I know I am going to get roundly criticized for this, but Fergie is not infallable (he may be close to it, tho!). He is a human being and makes mistakes like the rest of us. He is in a position where questions about his team selection and tactics are going to be raised after a period of less than stellar performances. IMO the last few fall into that category. I think the reality is that some of us (myself included) expect him to win every game. Yes, that is unfair and unrealistic, but we see the chance for such greatness from this team.

I don't think anyone has said that he isn't the greatest manager in football - he is. But when the team falls short, some of us will criticise.

Whether we should or not is a valid point - but isn't that what these forums are about...differing opinions?

carlyluvsunited

28-04-2008, 07:22 PM

I wish I could of put it like you jazz instead I lost my temper again must learn to control my temper when mourons post rubbish

It's 'morons' and not 'mourons' ... ;)

But no need for names like that.

People have the right to an opinion - right or wrong.

Opinions are never wrong - to those who have them.

To others they may seem ludicrous.

They may quote facts and figures that are wrong - so correct them.

You can suggest to them they are wrong - and tell them your views which is what
a forum is for. But why worry about it ? Why get stressed and angry about it ?

I made a thread about Ronaldo - after he missed the penalty recently
I asked people if he looked dazed and lost interest in the game. (I didn't
actually say he did, I asked if people thought he did but as usual
people misread things). People were up in arms about it, going crazy etc etc (I
deleted it in the end, I couldn't be bothered to show how they had mis-read it)...
but why ? If, If ......If that was my point of view, or how I saw it, so what !
Either make a sensible comment on it ... or carry on to the next thread !!

Chill out Fazzy Man ... watch your blood pressure ... Why get these silly bans
because someone has said something you disagree with ... we can always track
them down and beat them with a soggy newspaper anyway ... ;)

OK people, I know I am going to get roundly criticized for this, but Fergie is not infallable (he may be close to it, tho!). He is a human being and makes mistakes like the rest of us. He is in a position where questions about his team selection and tactics are going to be raised after a period of less than stellar performances. IMO the last few fall into that category. I think the reality is that some of us (myself included) expect him to win every game. Yes, that is unfair and unrealistic, but we see the chance for such greatness from this team.

I don't think anyone has said that he isn't the greatest manager in football - he is. But when the team falls short, some of us will criticise.

Whether we should or not is a valid point - but isn't that what these forums are about...differing opinions?Nice post Mr and worthy of some rep points ;)

I'd like to add ...

It is OK to criticise the guy ...

But don't do it when he has four games left to win the two biggest prizes
available to United !!!

I would wait until it is impossible for him to win them !!!

Because until this time - he could, and would prove you wrong !!

He's done it before and he will do it again !!!

fazman

28-04-2008, 07:31 PM

Why get these silly bans
because someone has said something you disagree with ... we can always track
them down and beat them with a soggy newspaper anyway ... ;)

Mr fazzy man lol!! yeah but you can use the soggy newspaper I want to use a great big soggy fish!!

Red Devil

28-04-2008, 08:17 PM

Never mind the penalties we gave away
Never mind the penalties we should have had
We are two wins away from winning the Premier title, at home on Saturday and away at Wigan. We are in the semi finals of the Champions League

DISASTER!!

Fergie today on Sky tv

Forever_United

28-04-2008, 08:22 PM

I couldnt agree with you more there versa. you read my mind, well said ! :)

Edit: By Carly ... Another one who reproduces a huge post - to respond with one line. Unnecesary ;)

tbh carly i was in two minds whether to post it, cheers for correcting me :) i've learnt something new today :D

manutd004

28-04-2008, 08:45 PM

Excellent post and its exactly how I feel. All the moaners are out as usual:rolleyes:.......................

Agree with both posts there!

Edit: By Carly: No need to reproduce the whole post,
especiially one as long as that, to say this.
Makes the page too long and takes people a
long time to read the whole thread ... ;)

Edit from manutd004: np Carly ;)

moondog

28-04-2008, 08:56 PM

Thx carly! :D

desmondo

28-04-2008, 10:33 PM

Excellent post and its exactly how I feel. All the moaners are out as usual:rolleyes:
saying Fergie did this and that wrong blah blah etc etc......I would have done
this and played x and y, as if they are more qualified than Fergie.
These people make me laugh and to a small degree disgust me.

Everyone is up in arms after a few games of not winning.
can I remind these people that these games were in Ewood park, the Nou Camp
and Stamford Bridge, arguably some of the toughest places to get a result in
World football. There is no shame in not winning in these stadiums.

As you mentioned above we were 5 mins or a dodgy penalty away from
effectively winning the Prem, and now people are saying Fergie hasnt a clue :rolleyes:

We are STILL top of the Prem, in a great position, we are STILL in the semi's
of the CL also in a very good position.

Threads like these not only **** me off, but should at least be posted AFTER
the next few games if we happen to muck them up and lose but we havent
lost anything yet.....

Have some faith ffs and show some support......
Some of you are so ungrateful......and the funny thing is, is that this could be
a HUGE season and yet everyone is ****ed off with 'tactics' :confused:
Some people wouldnt know a tactic if it bit them in the arse, and no its not
those little green and orange sweets either :rolleyes:

but its ok, if we win on tuesday and we beat West Ham, we can all celebrate
together and we can all forget how you doubted the master that is Fergie.

Actually no, Ill gladly dig these threads out after we have won some silverware,
and remind all you doubters of the harsh words you wrote.

If everything falls to pieces and we lose out in both trophies, Ill admit I got
it wrong and apologise. But Ill never doubt Fergie and my support for United
will never wane.

Apologies if this may seem a bit harsh and is offensive to some, but Im in a rush,
have had a crap day and this subject rightly gets on my wick. ;-)
I understand what you are saying but it's too easy to call us "moaners" and think it will all go away. I think that we will beat Barca (although not as convincing as it should be ) and that momentum wil cary us through against west ham/wigan. We will win the league and reach the final. However , that would not make the "moaners" wrong and if we lost both it would not make us right either. How it turns out is not as relevant as you think. Many of us "moaners" have felt this way about Fergie's tactics for years (esp. in Europe).

The "everything is Ok" Ostriches (well if you call us moaners) don't seem to make any logical points but instead just say "if we win it then the moaners will have to eat their words". What kind of argument is that? I will not be eating my words because it's perfectly possible that United will do it despite the wrong tactics. I will however be utterly happy if the results don't back up my theory. Some of you Ostriches seem to think we "moaners" don't care or would be sad to see United come through. Nothing would be further from the truth.

I started to feel uneasy when Arsenal were given the freedom of OT a few weeks ago. The final result was great , but I thought we looked so passive and nervous. The writing was on the wall then . A gooner team on it's knees , low on confidence and having already been smashed on the same ground was allowed to freewheel it through the first half like it was a game of netball? Duh? We seriously got out of jail that day. The result? Did that make the tactics right? Was it the right thing to do to sit back and watch Arsenal rebuild their fragile confidence by passing their triangles? When United got the ball the gooners were right on us so we gave it back to them , when they got it we just took photos half the time until we had to do something at 0-1. Mind you if ferdinand had got that nervous OG how different it might have been?

So try to understand that one off results don't always give a good guide to tactical nouse. What I look at is performance levels and the body language of players. I look at passing accuracy , fluency and confidence all of which have gradually been seeping away.One off results don't interest me when I'm trying to figure out whether the tactics are right or not , you have to look over a long period of time and Fergie has under achieved in Europe over nearly a decade now considering we have been in so many semis and QF. United just don't seem to get over that line often enough. So if you want to judge what I'm saying by results then please do.

Despite having said this I am still 100% behind him because I think you have to get behind your man despite his faults and Fergie doesn't have that many!!! My support for United is not waning , it gets stronger at times like this. The past is gone now ... So I will join you in C'MON UNITED!! And I hope you are ramming it down my throat in 3 weeks time.

Jazz 16

28-04-2008, 11:21 PM

^^^^^ great post I must say.
My previous post was just thrown out there, angrily and in a hurry.
It wasnt necessarily a go at yourself or others in this thread but more of a
general rant to the fergie bashers. There are many out there and after all he
has achieved I find it hard to stomach, so apologies if it seemed directed at
you or others in this thread.

I have read the many threads on other forums as well and this subject riles me
up. At least wait till after tommorow or next week to 'have a go'.

Ill have to re-read my post and all the others cos Ive got myself into a bit of a
tizzy (Ive had a strange day, lets just say)

Anyway, Im sure we shall continue this debate/conversation another day.

Welcome btw Desmondo to our forum. I hope you like it here, and you seem
like you will be a great member to have around. ;-)

yangch0000

28-04-2008, 11:35 PM

although fergie has enjoyed so much success with united, he has never been convincing in europe. i seriously hope that he can put that record right tomorrow. the club needs more european trophies, fergie himself needs more european trophies, we fans are desperately for more, as ever. fergie can answer his critics once and for all with a huge victory against barca.

D-day at OT tomorrow....

RichardsReds

28-04-2008, 11:36 PM

I don't know how you lads get the time to write and read so much!

Jazz 16

28-04-2008, 11:39 PM

I don't know how you lads get the time to write and read so much!

Me neither Rich....its all in my head and just pours out some days.
Sorry if I bore you but as you can tell Im pretty passionate and could
talk football to a sheep for days on end.......:o

versa

28-04-2008, 11:55 PM

However , that would not make the "moaners" wrong and if we lost both it would not make us right either. How it turns out is not as relevant as you think. Many of us "moaners" have felt this way about Fergie's tactics for years (esp. in Europe).

The "everything is Ok" Ostriches (well if you call us moaners) don't seem to make any logical points but instead just say "if we win it then the moaners will have to eat their words". What kind of argument is that?

Some of you Ostriches seem to think we "moaners" don't care or would be sad to see United come through. Nothing would be further from the truth.

The result? Did that make the tactics right?.... Mind you if ferdinand had got that nervous OG how different it might have been?...So try to understand that one off results don't always give a good guide to tactical nouse. What I look at is performance levels and the body language of players. I look at passing accuracy , fluency and confidence all of which have gradually been seeping away..... you have to look over a long period of time and Fergie has under achieved in Europe over nearly a decade now considering we have been in so many semis and QF.

Despite having said this I am still 100% behind him because I think you have to get behind your man despite his faults and Fergie doesn't have that many!!!

Excellent post, Desmondo. Saying things as it is (not never mind, see what happened next?!!!!). My type of man. Will definitely look out for your posts.:)

Think you have covered all grounds on this matter and save me another long post.

Saying things based on eventual result of each game or at end of season has got absolutely nothing to do with what has or is happening.

And yes, do separate facts from opinions please.

Jazz 16

29-04-2008, 12:09 AM

.

Saying things based on eventual result of each game or at end of season has got absolutely nothing to do with what has or is happening.

How so? If we end up winning the double I dont see much of a problem. Do you?
Its a results orientated business at the end of the day.
Of course we are all entitled to our opinions on the matter, which makes
discussions like this interesting.
but I doubt anyone will give 2 hoots about tactics, how well we played,
whether we deserved it or not, IF we become Champions of England and
Europe. :)

versa

29-04-2008, 12:22 AM

How so? If we end up winning the double I dont see much of a problem. Do you?
Its a results orientated business at the end of the day.
Of course we are all entitled to our opinions on the matter, which makes
discussions like this interesting.
but I doubt anyone will give 2 hoots about tactics, how well we played,
whether we deserved it or not, IF we become Champions of England and
Europe. :)

Because at this moment in time, we are discussing about the last 2 games or some questionable tactics employed. It has nothing to do with eventual outcome at end of season.

Of course, at the end of the day, if we win both honours, we will all faint with joy and more likely than not, to have forgotten what we are now discussing or debating.

But that is not the point we are CURRENTLY at....

Come on United then!!!!! 4 wins at a trot and we will all make up nicely and only naturally. :D :D

Jazz 16

29-04-2008, 12:22 AM

Edit: Having just read the whole thread in its entirety, I feel slightly
embarrassed by my first post:o . Versa, Desmondo and co. all make very good
points on the issue but I still stick to some of my main points (the ones where
I wasnt being insulting) on the issue.

My post was written in a hurry without having read too much before me
(which I should never have done) but hey we all make mistakes, and it was
directed at 'fans' and Gloryhunters in general. (not members that posted on THIS
thread), but threads across ALL United forums.
Apologies again, and I look forward to continuing on this debate over the week,
preferably after a United win :)

so I can rub it in all your faces..muah ;-)

versa

29-04-2008, 12:24 AM

carlyluvsunited

29-04-2008, 12:28 AM

amuchan

29-04-2008, 06:04 AM

Should there be changes to the squad? Yes! With the quality we have of course!

Should we rest players for an important clash vs Barca? DUH! Of course!

Should we not start our main player (Ronaldo) in such an important game? I beg to differ with Fergie on that one...

Should we have started Fletcher who hasn't played for months? I don't think so..

Should we bring on O'Shea a defesive minded player for Anderson when he was playing well (even according to Chelsea fans)...I don't think we were going for the win then which is what we were told in the press...

Okay maybe if Vidic played 90 mins it would of been different because Hargreaves was not supposed to come on at that time and that certainly did disrupt our game plan so maybe Fergie isn't 100% to blame but I do think Tevez, Ronaldo should of started and maybe others should of been rested...then again everyone has different opinions!

Totally and utterly disagree with you, resting our most in form player for THE most important game against barca was vital, you seem to think that we could lose against westham and wigan? i for one dont even think they will pose a slight problem, and on top of that chelsea have to go to newcastle and play their boggey team bolton. People love fergie when he does something great and slag him off over doing what is best for our team. Yes we played crap first half but a draw was snatched away from us by dubious reffereeing decisions, we should have had 1 pen at least. Had ronaldo played there was a risk of injury to our most important attacking assest, fergie was absolutely spot on because losing that game wasnt such a big deal! people should trust our manager. As for fletcher ive slagged him off more than any in the past but i thought he played well and showed great energy in his play. We are in a great position still people seem to forget that.

Edit: Carly: Quote first - then post....or it looks like you refer to the wrong person ;)
I changed this one for you okie dokie

carlyluvsunited

29-04-2008, 06:08 AM

Edit: Having just read the whole thread in its entirety, I feel slightly
embarrassed by my first post Versa, Desmondo and co. all make very good
points on the issue but I still stick to some of my main points (the ones where
I wasnt being insulting) on the issue.

My post was written in a hurry without having read too much before me
(which I should never have done) but hey we all make mistakes, and it was
directed at 'fans' and Gloryhunters in general. (not members that posted on THIS
thread), but threads across ALL United forums.
Apologies again, and I look forward to continuing on this debate over the week,
preferably after a United win :)

so I can rub it in all your faces..muah ;-)

Poof ... :p

If you let 'em 'Ave it !!!

Don't go back and apologise Jazzy ... too late ... you already showed us how you
feel ... I agree Versa and Desmondo do make valid points. But on numerous
threads all over this place there are those who do criticise Fergie and the team, but
never ever back it up with any posts of any substance !!

Just one liners ... Some have actually made it to 2 lines and they must collapse in
a heap after doing so much. These are the critics who get up my nasal passage.

So ... if you wont dig up the old posts - I guess I'll be doing it alone - Because you
can bet your ass I'll do it ... ;)

GLORY GLORY !!!

ON TO MOSCOW !!!

Shouldn't say that really. Wasn't it Hitler who said that, and look what happened to him ... :o

amuchan

29-04-2008, 06:14 AM

I for one cannot understand people who critisize our manager so often, yes he makes mistakes but mark my words, there will be paenty of worried people when he does retire because filling the bosses boots will be one almighty task and we should support and enjoy this wonderful manager of ours whilst it lasts!

fazman

29-04-2008, 07:07 AM

my god this is a touchy subject as I said before its insantity to call fergie

versa

29-04-2008, 09:11 AM

My biggest problem, which I don't think I highlighted is when the guys or girls here start threads about Fergie after a bad result ... and then set about saying ie. Ronnie was rubbish up front, he shouldn't be there, Rooney on the wing is rubbish, is Fergie mad resting Ronnie, Tevez etc etc and then going on to say what they would have done.

That's easy to do ... hindsight is a wonderful thing.

None of them are coaches, none of them are qualified in this job and yet they
claim to know more than the best of the best.

I just think it would be nice for people to recognise him for what he does when he
tries new tactics and new ideas - especially if they go wrong.

I do understand your concerns and noble intention for the larger part of your posting. However, I do find your above bolded statement highly objectionable, and have observed that you have used it once too often enough for me to raise this matter. It is nothing personal, I must carefully clarify and stress, to avoid any misunderstanding. It is just in the context of a forum and thus totally issue-specific.

For goodness sake, you must be the only member/staff that uses such a basis on others in the forum. Who is indeed qualified by the way, unless Mourinho suddenly so decides to join our forum? Who doesn’t know that as a fact? But that does not surely mean that we can’t express our opinions about Fergie’s tactics or approach; whether we are qualified or not must be irrelevant. This is a forum, mind you. As long as each opinion expressed is sincere and honest, and based on facts, reasons or some kind of logic that others can identify with, even though not necessarily agreeing with. Whether anybody agrees or not is not that important actually. We are not running for election here.

Fergie, himself, publicly admitted after the away Roma game that he should have switched to 4-4-2 sooner. Does that then mean that we can only say so after he has admitted his folly? Even if he had not publicly acknowledged it, many of us would have mentioned it in our posts too. Again, whether we are right or wrong is besides the point.

And all these do not mean that we don’t recognise, appreciate, respect or have forgotten what Fergie has done for us. Far from the truth. But Fergie is not perfect, infallible or flawless too is also a truth.

And of course hindsight is 20/20 perfect vision. True to the dot.

But what is a forum for? Are not we independent fan with our own thoughts and opinions, and gather here to share, discuss and debate? Or should we become collective puppets, singing in one voice to the tune of Fergie and echoing in unison? Or should we ‘wisely’ assume that Fergie must be right in any case and thus any bad result or performance must then be attributed to luck, referee or simply the players letting him down only? What is the point if we lament throughout our posts about the lack of luck or that the damned referee should be shot to r.i.p? And for the latter, can we blame Rooney for being ineffective as a midfielder when he is deployed there or Ronaldo lacking support upfront to be effective at all? Can’t we even talk about it?

Please kindly refrain from using such basis on the forum. Don’t kill a good, healthy debate on footie stuff here or kill the spirit of a forum. We are not school children.

That is all. Just that one single point mainly.

P.S. If I have appeared too 'aggressive' on it, my sincere apology. But I thought what you said was a bit scornful.

Jazz 16

29-04-2008, 10:57 AM

Poof ...

If you let 'em 'Ave it !!!

Don't go back and apologise Jazzy ... too late ... you already showed us how you
feel ... I agree Versa and Desmondo do make valid points. But on numerous
threads all over this place there are those who do criticise Fergie and the team, but
never ever back it up with any posts of any substance !!

Just one liners ... Some have actually made it to 2 lines and they must collapse in
a heap after doing so much. These are the critics who get up my nasal passage.

So ... if you wont dig up the old posts - I guess I'll be doing it alone - Because you
can bet your ass I'll do it ...

GLORY GLORY !!!

ON TO MOSCOW !!!

Shouldn't say that really. Wasn't it Hitler who said that, and look what happened to him ... :o

Cheers for the insult :rolleyes:
I still stand by what I said in my initial post, and its directed at all Gloryhunters
and 'fans' who havent a breeze whats going on. Those type **** me right off.
I only apologised for directing my comments to people on this thread, when I
hadnt even taken the time to read their posts properly.

Valid points were made, which I accept and take on board.

Anyway Carly, If all goes to plan, Ill be with you digging up all those old
posts, making members lives a misery;) :D

CROoney

29-04-2008, 12:06 PM

I don't think Fergie should answer anything about his team picking. He should be asked about his wrong tactics though. I mean we were defending for the entire match. As soon as they scored their penalty we created 2 100% chances in 5 minutes , making sheva and cole to clear the ball of the line there.... I'm tired already of saying this - but we need to fear no one - we aren't capable of playing catenaccio, it's not in our DNA. We are an attacking side that won their last CL on attack , not by defensive displays !
It's as if I want Barca to score the first before us !

akash_reds

29-04-2008, 12:12 PM

Justice

29-04-2008, 01:18 PM

You are a (deleted) idiot.

These "naive tactical mistakes" are press (deleted), he made no mistakes!!!

He played defensively against Barca because he knew our chance would come, it did, several times but we didn't put them away. He played Rooney out of position not because he's an idiot and thinks Wayne is a winger, because of his stupendously high work rate trying to cancel out Barca's attacking full backs and deadly wingers.

Against Chelsea he did not field a "weak" team he field our strongest possible! Yes you (deleted) heard it, our strongest team. Fletcher Anderson and Carrick are our biggest, burliest strong midfielders and if Scholes or Giggs was on they would have been kicked off the park by bully boys Mikel and Essien.

Try reasoning your own opinions before taking everything the press spoon-feed you as fact you ignorant (deleted).

Red Devil

29-04-2008, 01:20 PM

Bye Justice, see you in 7 days ..................................................

carlyluvsunited

29-04-2008, 01:57 PM

I do find your above bolded statement highly objectionable, and have observed that you have used it once too often enough for me to raise this matter.

Highly Objectionable ? You mean like I find other peoples comments highly objectionable ? So what's the problem ? That's 1 - 1 as I see it. You've observed I used it once too often - I'll [probably use it again so dont get stressed.

For goodness sake, you must be the only member/staff that uses such a basis on others in the forum.

And ........

But that does not surely mean that we can’t express our opinions about Fergie’s tactics or approach; whether we are qualified or not must be irrelevant.

You're absolutely 100% right ... So if you can swiftly point out to me where exactly I said that no one can comment like this - we can put this issue to bed. Oh wait, I didn't say that did I ? You seem to have seen something that's not actually there.

Fergie, himself, publicly admitted after the away Roma game that he should have switched to 4-4-2 sooner. Does that then mean that we can only say so after he has admitted his folly? Even if he had not publicly acknowledged it, many of us would have mentioned it in our posts too. Again, whether we are right or wrong is besides the point.

And I refer you to my last answer ...

But what is a forum for? Are not we independent fan with our own thoughts and opinions, and gather here to share, discuss and debate? Or should we become collective puppets, singing in one voice to the tune of Fergie and echoing in unison? Or should we ‘wisely’ assume that Fergie must be right in any case and thus any bad result or performance must then be attributed to luck, referee or simply the players letting him down only? What is the point if we lament throughout our posts about the lack of luck or that the damned referee should be shot to r.i.p? And for the latter, can we blame Rooney for being ineffective as a midfielder when he is deployed there or Ronaldo lacking support upfront to be effective at all? Can’t we even talk about it?

I again refer you to my above answer ... which will ultimately refer you to the one previous to that.

Please kindly refrain from using such basis on the forum. Don’t kill a good, healthy debate on footie stuff here or kill the spirit of a forum. We are not school children.

There's a pattern developing here - your whole post is based on you 'assuming' I said people cannot post such things - Sadly though, I said nothing of the sort. In reality we are wasting an awful amount of time on a pointless post I'm afraid.

That is all. Just that one single point mainly.

OK well, thanks ...

P.S. If I have appeared too 'aggressive' on it, my sincere apology. But I thought what you said was a bit scornful.

Not at all Versa, very polite and a pleasure as always.

I would like to add, however, that I am right in what I said. Are there any qualified coaches here ? Is there anybody better than Fergie ?

Of course not, he's the best that ever lived, we all know that !!

If United win 6-0 tonight and Ronnie gets a hattrick ... everyone will be going crazy, we'll have another 15 Ronaldo threads, quite rightly too, and the whole place will be rocking , Ronnie this, Ronnie that and blah, blah, blah.....

There wont be a 'Fergie' thread !! There never is !! Why make one ... he's just the manager and the players did all the work .... or whatever !! No sadly there will be silence with respect to Fergie when we win ... but if we lose or 'only get a draw' ... out the closet they come - and point their fingers at him.

I never once said nobody can say anything Versa, sorry, what I am saying now though, is let's not all gang up on the guy when he makes a mistake, or when people think he has done so. In EVERY game the team is announced 1 hour before kick off .... In over 40 match day threads not ONE PERSON HAS CRITICISED HIS TEAM SELECTION. They use hindsight after the game to do so though. Easy isn't it !

He went to Barca and played for a draw and got it. Good result !! Draw every game away from home in Europe and win all your home games ..... You're in the Champions League Final - FACT !! But people criticised this good result ! United will be booking their tickets for Moscow tonight, to take part in the final of the biggest club football tournament in the World !! YES GO UNITED, GO WIN THIS THING !! How can the 'Fergie Bashers' justify their mistrust and non-belief in him then huh ? He could end up as manager of the best team in Europe in 3 weeks time ... but he knows nothing about tactics and his team selection is a bit crap !!!

Give me a break will you ... nice long post ... but thin on content sorry.

carlyluvsunited

29-04-2008, 02:15 PM

questions should be asked....he tried to get a draw with a team with some our players rested...he thought he could draw the game and put pressure on chelsea....but it didnt go according to plan.....hopefully he wil understande that and go full out in the three matches and hopefuly a fourth.....
and he should try not to play defensive tactics in the home matches too..we should go all out and try to win the game!!!
And right on cue - we have another one :eek:

akash, are you really trying to tell me Fergie is not doing this right!!

Top of the League !!

Champions League semi final tonight .....

Four matches away from a miraculous double ....

And he is doing it wrong !!!

Sorry but that's just nonsense......
say it by all means, you have the right to say it or we'll have
Versa bearing down on us .... but excuse me while I laugh
my ass off !!

Justice agrees too, however he has problems controlling his use of expletives !!

You are a (deleted) idiot.

These "naive tactical mistakes" are press (deleted), he made no mistakes!!!

He played defensively against Barca because he knew our chance would come, it did, several times but we didn't put them away. He played Rooney out of position not because he's an idiot and thinks Wayne is a winger, because of his stupendously high work rate trying to cancel out Barca's attacking full backs and deadly wingers.

Against Chelsea he did not field a "weak" team he field our strongest possible! Yes you (deleted) heard it, our strongest team. Fletcher Anderson and Carrick are our biggest, burliest strong midfielders and if Scholes or Giggs was on they would have been kicked off the park by bully boys Mikel and Essien.

Try reasoning your own opinions before taking everything the press spoon-feed you as fact you ignorant (deleted).

versa

29-04-2008, 02:30 PM

Carly, sadly you do need to read the entire thread and other related threads again (including your own writings) before you go ranting away again (as usual). But if you think it is a waste of time, it is your own prerogative. Just leave the posts here to dry for the rest. And issue-specific please. Look at the bolded statement of yours that I quoted again. That was my only point. Don't have to divert so far away.

CROoney

29-04-2008, 02:46 PM

guys - i still haven't read your fights on here but I must say what I see. I don't care if anyone agrees or not I'll say it. We're in no position to criticise but we have our right to be disappointed. Our performances have taken a dip, you can't argue with that- We have sung praises about Fergie throughout the whole season and those who were complaining were in minority. I find the great man responsible for every success, and therefore we must find him responsible for bad moments. When you win only once in 5 matches and let your 5 points gap gets reduced to 0 , you must be concerned. Especially if you've shown nothing in those matches.
Fergie trusts his players - and I fully support him. Team picking is not where he got it wrong IMO. But performances . We can be unsatisfied with perofmances but I think that critics must be put aside. At least untill the end of the season. That's why I don't find myself criticising but only sharing my views.The end of season is when the" bodycount starts " . I agree with Fergies' resting of Tevez, Scholes and Ronaldo ( that wasn't our most important ,match of the season anyway - they are yet to follow), but once again - I'm so disappointed with our performances. The last 2 matches were like watching England playing Estonia with us being Estonia and our opponents England ( lots of possesion, no real chances , well at least not many ).Like I said before - When we conceeded that second goal - we opened up and in 5 minutes we made them clear the ball of the line for 2 times. Imagine if we'd played like that all along. If we'd decided to play like that throughout the whole match we would have probably snatched a draw. So what if we lost playing like that ? We would probably saved my ( and I believe most of yours ) nerves !

Jazz 16

29-04-2008, 11:22 PM

Questions eh? ;)

CMON UNITED!!!!!:)

-zuco-

29-04-2008, 11:24 PM

Hehe this thread seems so silly now :D

Jazz 16

29-04-2008, 11:27 PM

Hehe this thread seems so silly now :D

Its also closed for some reason :confused:
but Im looking forward to its reopening :D
Its been a good discussion nonetheless.
At the end of the day, we are ALL as happy as pigs in...

carlyluvsunited

30-04-2008, 05:31 AM

It would seem that the tactics of playing for the draw in Barca ... then resting 4
top players and attempting to 'nick a cheeky draw' at The Bridge ... and then
dumping Barca out the competition in the return leg ... WAS QUITE A CLEVER
PLAN .... !!!

We're now going to Moscow !!

But I don't see any praise for Fergie on these forums ...

Like I said before ... people are quick to jump down his throat ... and oh so slow
to give him the praise he deserves.

Anyway ... I'll try to make a thread for Fergie later ...

Perhaps it would be nice if the people below could say something nice about him
in the new thread.

Just for once, the questions need to be asked of Manchester United boss Sir Alex
Ferguson rather than his Chelsea counterpart Avram Grant.

'There is no way I could have played the same eleven that started at Barcelona
on Wednesday night,' argued a defensive United boss. 'The travel takes
something out of you and we have to keep one eye on the return game this
coming Tuesday. It's not too far away don't forget. I have spoken all year about
the quality of the squad I have here and they had to respond when we needed
them.

Could it be that Alex Ferguson is contemplating finishing what looked set to be
great season without a trophy by the end of next weekend? Should such a
shocking scenario become reality, United's celebrated boss will only have himself
to blame.

I agree with this article from espn...it was Fergie's choice of team which lost us
the game and maybe will lose us the title...tactics was correct, choice of players -
WRONG! :mad:

A few of the new threads are all on the same theme ie Fergie's
negative approach.

if you don't even aspire to win games, you will win nothing at the end of it al
l

That only makes me painfully wonder what if we had just played a 'normal' game
with an 'acceptable' desire to score a priceless away goal. If we could not, just
too bad; well and fine. But we did not even try and so will it come back to haunt
us?

Did he chicken out or knowingly tell us a big fat lie?

I hope Fergie will wake up his ideas now since he has already thrown away
whatever leeway or buffer we had - we have to absolutely play to win for the
next three, four games in a row now. Not even breathing space allowed.
What fer make it so damned laborious for ourselves?!

I couldnt agree with you more there versa. you read my
mind, well said ! :)

i wasn't surprised Manchester United lost 4 two reasons:

1] Ronaldo didn't start (he hardly played)

2] Chelsea haven't lost at the bridge for 101 games...

Saying things based on eventual result of each game or at end
of season has got absolutely nothing to do with what has or is happening.

my god this is a touchy subject as I said before its insantity to
call fergie

questions should be asked....he tried to get a draw with a
team with some our players rested...he thought he could draw the game and put
pressure on chelsea....but it didnt go according to plan.....hopefully he wil
understande that and go full out in the three matches and hopefuly a fourth.....
and he should try not to play defensive tactics in the home matches too..we
should go all out and try to win the game!!!

Carly, sadly you do need to read the entire thread and other
related threads again (including your own writings) before you go ranting away
again (as usual). But if you think it is a waste of time, it is your own prerogative.
Just leave the posts here to dry for the rest. And issue-specific please. Look at
the bolded statement of yours that I quoted again. That was my only point.
Don't have to divert so far away.

Versa, sadly you need to start writing in a way I can understand and not in
riddles. This post should be in the riddles thread ... :confused: But if you think
I'm wrong that's your perogative, just think about it before you go ranting away
again (as usual).

'Issue specific'
'Look at your point'
'Don't divert' ... I just saw you dishing out some orders to another guy in another
thread somewhere, telling him what he should/should not write, LMAO !!

'Aye Aye Calm Down ... Calm Down !!

Hhz-SPjrEaQ

versa

30-04-2008, 08:12 AM

Lo and behold, this thread was closed and opened again. Magic....

1. When United played badly, negative comments and sentiments are but only natural and truthful because there are only genuine concerns and care for the team.

2. Whether United win the Double or not at the end of the season is a separate issue altogether with the earlier honest discussions there and then when United played badly.

3. Don't have to spend so much time and effort to dig out posts after posts from genuine members that participated in those honest discussions. It hurts the spirit of a forum and only reflects the level of maturity and the sort of mentality the witch hunter sadly possesses.

P.S.
1. Just not to speak "in riddles" for the sole benefit of Carly, this is parallel to the point I last raised in this thread….. A senior staff of a forum telling members who expressed their honest opinions the following is indeed highly objectionable and does a FORUM no good at all: "None of them are coaches, none of them are qualified in this job and yet they claim to know more than the best of the best."

2. Carly, thanks for reading each and every of my postings; you really flatter me. If you are bringing up about the “guy in another thread somewhere, telling him what he should/should not write”, please also announce that the thread is the one on United being labeled as one-man team. Let the members at least read to understand the circumstance. Don’t have to make it so ‘vague’ and ‘mysterious’ even though it was done and dusted there and then. Honesty is the best policy, remember?

carlyluvsunited

30-04-2008, 09:15 AM

Lo and behold, this thread was closed and opened again. Magic....

Don't know who closed it - not magic really ... just one click and it's done ;)

1. When United played badly, negative comments and sentiments are but only natural and truthful because there are only genuine concerns and care for the team.

You mean like you asking: "Did he chicken out or is he a big fat liar !!!" Calling the manager of United 'gutless' and insinuating he is a liar shows genuine care and concern for the team does it ? It's offensive and derogatory !
It achives nothing ! The fact we are now going to Moscow it kind of makes you look a bit silly too ...

2. Whether United win the Double or not at the end of the season is a separate issue altogether with the earlier honest discussions there and then when United played badly.

Nonsense ! What he was doing when everyone was slagging him off ... was part of his long term plans for reaching Moscow and for winning the League again ! One went wrong, the other worked out perfectly. How can the Chelsea game and the Barca game(s) be called a seperate entity from the double ? You certainly have some bizarre ways of talking about things.

3. Don't have to spend so much time and effort to dig out posts after posts from genuine members that participated in those honest discussions. It hurts the spirit of a forum and only reflects the level of maturity and the sort of mentality the witch hunter sadly possesses.

Took about 3 minutes thats all, quote, copy/paste, quote ... etc etc. It was done in a lighthearted manner - so these guys can go along and say some good words about Fergie in the new thread then no one will have excuses to make a big deal of their criticisms earlier, which could happen, I've seen it !!! But with you here - stirring it up - yet again :rolleyes: maybe that wont happen now ... well done Mr Versa mission accomplished I guess. So given that I did it for good reasons I just explained ... It's hardly going to hurt the spirit of a forum as you insinuate does it ? No of course not ! Questioning my maturity and mentality is getting rather personal so I will choose to ignore those comments Versa .... I'll leave all that up to you OK.

P.S.
1. Just not to speak "in riddles" for the sole benefit of Carly, this is parallel to the point I last raised in this thread….. A senior staff of a forum telling members who expressed their honest opinions the following is indeed highly objectionable and does a FORUM no good at all: "None of them are coaches, none of them are qualified in this job and yet they claim to know more than the best of the best."

You, and only you say it is highly objectionable ... nobody else. I like the little quip "for the sole benefit of Carly" ... quite cute and very subtle way of saying I dont understand ... and you talk to me about maturity, LMAO.

2. Carly, thanks for reading each and every of my postings; you really flatter me. If you are bringing up about the “guy in another thread somewhere, telling him what he should/should not write”, please also announce that the thread is the one on United being labeled as one-man team. Let the members at least read to understand the circumstance. Don’t have to make it so ‘vague’ and ‘mysterious’ even though it was done and dusted there and then. Honesty is the best policy, remember?

I rarely have the time to read through your posts sorry. So the flattery is uncalled for ... hate to burst the bubble ... as for the "guy in the other post" well thats all it was to me, lol.....I have no idea where it was or what it was about........I make it 'vague' and 'mysterious' ... You've lost me again. It was the way you told someone how to make posts amused me, not the content of the post, that was a bit boring as it happens.

Much as I appreciate your attention on this thread and your enormous efforts in writing so much about me and my actions ... I'm getting a bit bored with it now so can't we write about something else ? Can't you just wait for my next post and jump on that and criticise me for that one - like you normally do. At least it changes the flavour of the posts huh ... :p

versa

30-04-2008, 09:34 AM

Can't you just wait for my next post and jump on that and criticise me for that one - like you normally do. At least it changes the flavour of the posts huh ... :p

Sorry to disappoint you too. I am only issue-specific, not person-specific; I look out for issues only, not person(s). Believe me, Carly. ;)

Anyway, I am as happy as everybody here in the forum for the CL Final. So whoever wants to call me names, I don't mind at all. :D :D

moondog

30-04-2008, 10:26 AM

I happily accept the 'I TOLD YOU SO"!!!!!!! :D :D :D

sharafanta7

30-04-2008, 10:42 AM

So the forums closed:
conclusion-------------FERGIE ROCKS

Red Devil

30-04-2008, 12:21 PM

Every manager, every week, faces critics; its the nature of the beast. The problem arises when people with rose tinted glasses cannot see failings of any sort. I accuse nobody in here but am generalising.

As Fergie himself said the other day, but not in his words, "We have had some bad days, good days, decisions given, decisions against, good luck, bad luck. We are top of the Premiership with 2 games to play, one home, one away. We are (now) in the Champions League final. Its a disaster!!"

Fergie himself is the first to admit, if not in public, that he has made errors. But the biggest error of all this oh so successful season, has not been from Fergie but from the players he has selected for various games. They have not performed as he would have, and should, have expected.

If Fergie has any faults its his faith in the rotation system and his (possible) belief that some games are already won. Too many games has he made changes to teams that should not have been made before the whistle and it has backfired. He, like any other manager, should always play his BEST eleven at the start of any game and then, when they have achieved the "win", take players off and rest them.

I often quote Bill Shankly in this, but you are all probably aware of it by now. Nevertheless, its been a good season, a hard season and a hopefully doubly successful season.

To Fergies credit, this has possibly been the hardest title to win, if we do indeed win it. credit to him, credit to his purchases and credit to the team. BUT, we could have done better ;)

sweet fa

30-04-2008, 01:36 PM

the mistake was made in january if we are all honest ,when we did not buy a striker who we could use.that decision has left us with only 2 strikers who are both carrying injuries or not 100% fit at a very important part of the season ,this has persuaded fergie to try and play safe or negative in a few games of late .
fergie will sort this striker problem out once and for all this summer thats for sure,hopefully we will get the show rolling again after that great result against barca and we must get rooney fit for the final he will be crucial in that game.

desmondo

01-05-2008, 01:33 AM

You raise some good points desmondo, and I do hear what you say.

My biggest problem, which I don't think I highlighted is when the guys or girls
here start threads about Fergie after a bad result ... and then set about saying
ie. Ronnie was rubbish up front, he shouldn't be there, Rooney on the wing is
rubbish, is Fergie mad resting Ronnie, Tevez etc etc and then going on to say
what they would have done.

That's easy to do ... hindsight is a wonderful thing. You have all the facts before
you and time enough to make up any solution you wish to. Write it on a forum
and thats that - here's how you do it, thats what Fergie should have done and
now he better sort it out !!

None of them are coaches, none of them are qualified in this job and yet they
claim to know more than the best of the best.

It must be a nightmare for Fergie if he has an idea or plan he wants to try out.
Trying new things is pioneering and it's what makes winners. But how the hell
can anyone risk that if the fans jump on your back as soon as something doesn't
go their way ?

If it finished 1 - 1 at The Bridge Saturday - all we would hear right now is what a
genius Fergie is - he rested 4 top players and can you believe it - he won us the
League title. He's an absolute genious !!

He was 4 minutes from that scenario !! It was taken away by a penalty decision,
right or wong decision doesn't matter now, but a penalty !!!

Four very little minutes away from having page after page after page of praise
here on manutdtalk.com ... one dodgy penalty decsion now means he gets page
after page after page of being told he is inept with tactics, team selection is all
wrong, players are in the wrong positions etc etc.

He tried being a cheeky git against Chelsea by nicking a point and virtually
winning the League AND RESTING FOUR TOP STARS TOO.!!

I praise him for trying that ... the advantage of having fresh players against Barca
would have made a huge difference.

I just think it would be nice for people to recognise him for what he does when he
tries new tactics and new ideas - especially if they go wrong.
Yes , hindsight is a wonderful thing and in hindsight after beating Barca I can see more what Fergie was trying to achieve. I still think the win over 2 legs could have been much more convincing. A real United performance would have maybe conceded a goal but would have found many more cracks in that barca defence and fragile confidence.
Anyway , you are right that none of us are top coaches and I for one thought he was wrong to sell beckham and van nistelrooy , but he got those right. You make a good point about those who , the moment we lose, just call for fergie's head because we have to get away from this fickle results based thinking.

I did think we would squeeze past Barca but I also now hope that we don't sit back against Chelsea and show them the same amount of space because if we do they will beat us. Unlike Barca they have a cutting edge.

One point I would like to make is that labelling us lot as negative moaners is basically inaccurate. I feel as if I am far more positive about United than some of the rest of you. It's precisely because I do believe that we are much more effective and a better team when we try and intimidate the opposition with our play rather than sit back on the counter. I see many of those who attack us for "moaning" as the negative ones in reality because they seem happy with negative tactics. It also not about "pretty" play either . If I thought that United had a better chance of beating Chelsea by playing ugly , negative and defensive then I would say go for it and win on penalties lads! But I don't. We are just not as good at doing that ( even though sometimes we do a damn good impression of Sven's England) as we are at attacking.

I see myself and versa and others as the positive ones because we believe an attacking United high tempo has a better chance than a negative one - because nobody does it as well as we do. We must play to our strengths and not betray the basic philosophies that have made United (and Fergie's dynasty) what they are.

So I'm officially turning the tables on all you negative thinkers who are not positive and don't really believe that United are good enough to win things on their own terms , in there own way. We are the positive ones really because we believe in effective , direct attacking , pressure on the ball football. That's why we get so twitchy seeing United defend deep and jog around like netball players admiring another team's football whilst trying to make last ditch precise tackles in our own box for most of a game.

This approach is often seen as "tactical" and "defensive" but to me it is just asking to get hit by a sucker punch. Let me ask you this. When did you feel the most nervous that Barca might score? Was it when we pressed them into mistakes and started winning the ball off them and forming some of our own attacks or was it when we allowed messi to dribble at us on the edge of our own box? I know when it was that my finger nails took a pounding!!!! One thing you don't have to be a coach to know is this- it's very difficult for the other team to score when you are having a shot at their goal.

So stop and think before you label us as negative and tactically naive because that's exactly how I feel about you ostriches.

(BTW- I'm only having a bit of fun - let's celebrate the win for now!!! I don't care if he's wrong or right - he pulled it off anyway!! Bring on the Chelski )

yangch0000

01-05-2008, 01:43 AM

Yes , hindsight is a wonderful thing and in hindsight after beating Barca I can see more what Fergie was trying to achieve. I still think the win over 2 legs could have been much more convincing. A real United performance would have maybe conceded a goal but would have found many more cracks in that barca defence and fragile confidence.
Anyway , you are right that none of us are top coaches and I for one thought he was wrong to sell beckham and van nistelrooy , but he got those right. You make a good point about those who , the moment we lose, just call for fergie's head because we have to get away from this fickle results based thinking.

I did think we would squeeze past Barca but I also now hope that we don't sit back against Chelsea and show them the same amount of space because if we do they will beat us. Unlike Barca they have a cutting edge.

One point I would like to make is that labelling us lot as negative moaners is basically inaccurate. I feel as if I am far more positive about United than some of the rest of you. It's precisely because I do believe that we are much more effective and a better team when we try and intimidate the opposition with our play rather than sit back on the counter. I see many of those who attack us for "moaning" as the negative ones in reality because they seem happy with negative tactics. It also not about "pretty" play either . If I thought that United had a better chance of beating Chelsea by playing ugly , negative and defensive then I would say go for it and win on penalties lads! But I don't. We are just not as good at doing that ( even though sometimes we do a damn good impression of Sven's England) as we are at attacking.

I see myself and versa and others as the positive ones because we believe an attacking United high tempo has a better chance than a negative one - because nobody does it as well as we do. We must play to our strengths and not betray the basic philosophies that have made United (and Fergie's dynasty) what they are.

So I'm officially turning the tables on all you negative thinkers who are not positive and don't really believe that United are good enough to win things on their own terms , in there own way. We are the positive ones really because we believe in effective , direct attacking , pressure on the ball football. That's why we get so twitchy seeing United defend deep and jog around like netball players admiring another team's football whilst trying to make last ditch precise tackles in our own box for most of a game.

This approach is often seen as "tactical" and "defensive" but to me it is just asking to get hit by a sucker punch. Let me ask you this. When did you feel the most nervous that Barca might score? Was it when we pressed them into mistakes and started winning the ball off them and forming some of our own attacks or was it when we allowed messi to dribble at us on the edge of our own box? I know when it was that my finger nails took a pounding!!!! One thing you don't have to be a coach to know is this- it's very difficult for the other team to score when you are having a shot at their goal.

So stop and think before you label us as negative and tactically naive because that's exactly how I feel about you ostriches.

(BTW- I'm only having a bit of fun - let's celebrate the win for now!!! I don't care if he's wrong or right - he pulled it off anyway!! Bring on the Chelski )

well well said.
We can attack, why sit back?
We can win, why choose not to lose?

versa

01-05-2008, 02:34 AM

Think Desmondo brought up a new surprising point worth mentioning here. After that, guess this thread should be done and dusted.

I didn't realise we, 'moaners', are actually more positive. Lol. Because we believe we are more capable than what we think we are and should attack to win games, and really take it very badly when we choose to sit back and defend for a draw, and get an 'accident' against us eg Chelsea game. If we play to our strength by attacking but still can't win, well and fine. At least our best was not good enough in that game. Or at least we have a better chance than not to utilise our strength at all (?).

And one final point. Don't you think it actually reflects our actual self-belief and confidence when we choose to defend for a draw at Chelsea instead of going for the jugular to finish them off and seal the title there and then? Surely it cannot be because we only want to win it on the last day!? Yes, I actually think we didn't believe we would win the title at Stamford Bridge. I thought the most positive reason for taking out Anderson in the game then was to rest him for the Barca game. Now we all know. He didn't even kick the ball on Tuesday!!!

Take it away, Yang....

well well said.
We can attack, why sit back?
We can win, why choose not to lose?

desmondo

01-05-2008, 01:52 PM

well well said.
We can attack, why sit back?
We can win, why choose not to lose?
Exactly , and despite the barca win it can still all go horribly wrong. Let's say we beat west ham , chelsea get a point at the geordies , we then need a point against wigan , we sit back and play for the draw (worst possible choice) and lose , chelsea win at home , title gone, fergie then thinks " ok it worked against barca , why not chelsea ? " we sit back , play it tactical , chelsea gain confidence , balls go into our box......well you can see where I'm going with this.

My point here is that chelsea have found a winning way and they are sticking to it , they will not change , they know what they are good at and that's that. We have found our way this season but I STILL sense the temptation in our camp to abandon it in favour of second rate impersonations of chelsea. I still see how this could happen if we show teams too much respect and don't play to our strengths. We have the best team in europe and it's time to believe it and show it. All champions have that edge of ****y arrogance and belief in them that takes them over the line and we won't get over it if we fear the team we are playing , respect yes , fear no. Don't let the barca game fool any of you. Barca were a dangerous but fragile team low on confidence and unity just asking to be pressurised and rolled over. We sneaked through in a very dangerous fashion.

I still think we'll do it but I may have no fingers left by the end.

Think Desmondo brought up a new surprising point worth mentioning here. After that, guess this thread should be done and dusted.

I didn't realise we, 'moaners', are actually more positive. Lol. Because we believe we are more capable than what we think we are and should attack to win games, and really take it very badly when we choose to sit back and defend for a draw, and get an 'accident' against us eg Chelsea game. If we play to our strength by attacking but still can't win, well and fine. At least our best was not good enough in that game. Or at least we have a better chance than not to utilise our strength at all (?).

And one final point. Don't you think it actually reflects our actual self-belief and confidence when we choose to defend for a draw at Chelsea instead of going for the jugular to finish them off and seal the title there and then? Surely it cannot be because we only want to win it on the last day!? Yes, I actually think we didn't believe we would win the title at Stamford Bridge. I thought the most positive reason for taking out Anderson in the game then was to rest him for the Barca game. Now we all know. He didn't even kick the ball on Tuesday!!!

Take it away, Yang....
There's a psychological principle at work here. Teams that play for draws often end up with egg on their faces because they focus on the fear of losing rather than success. Cantona never approached penalties with fear or negativity because he saw them as a great opportunity to score. Players that focus on not missing often miss because what your mind focusses on is what you end up getting. Take Sheff United . If they had needed a win against wigan on the last day you could almost guarantee that they would ahve got at least a draw. Wigan needed a win so therefore they played with no fear because a draw was no good anyway. See my point anyone? So to me focussing so much on stopping another team rather than forcing them to worry about you is bad psychology if you are infact better than them because you have thrown away the one psychological advantage you have.

My understanding is that although teams that have the lions share of possession don't always win , they do win far more often than the team that doesn't get the ball so much. If I said to you that chelsea were going to get 65% of possession in moscow and 7-2 on corners would any of you be happy? I would not be betting on a victory with those stats.