US and EU issue new Iran warning

[Dynamite]

The EU and the US have threatened Iran with further sanctions unless it verifiably suspends nuclear enrichment.

The measures were announced after US President George W Bush held talks in Slovenia, during what is expected to be his last official tour of Europe.

The "additional measures" will include "steps to ensure Iranian banks cannot... support proliferation and terrorism", said a joint statement.

Mr Bush said a nuclear-armed Iran would be "incredibly dangerous" to peace.

"They can either face isolation or they can have a better relationship with all of us if they verifiably suspend their nuclear enrichment programme," he said.

"They've ignored the IAEA [International Atomic Energy Agency] in the past and therefore they can't be trusted with enrichment."

The US president was speaking during a joint press conference with Slovenian Prime Minister Janez Jansa and European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso after the leaders' summit at Brdo Castle.

Mr Bush will later travel to Germany, Italy, France, the Vatican and the UK.

[B]'Carrot and stick' policy[/B]

The 5,000-word statement urged Tehran not to continue defying a demand from the UN Security Council to stop the enrichment of uranium as part of its nuclear programme.

"We will fully and effectively implement" the existing UN sanctions "and we are ready to supplement those sanctions with additional measures," said the statement.

"We will continue to work together... to take steps to ensure Iranian banks cannot abuse the international banking system to support proliferation and terrorism."

The UN Security Council has approved three rounds of sanctions against Iran. These include asset restrictions and travel bans on Iranian individuals and companies said to be involved in nuclear work.

The sanctions also ban the sale to Iran of so-called dual-use items - items which can have either a military or civilian purpose.

As well as Iran, his talks with EU leaders have touched on Zimbabwe, climate change, trade and energy.

Mr Bush also said Turkey should be allowed to join the EU, a move which has been opposed by some EU states since Ankara started accession talks

"We strongly believe Turkey should be a member of the EU, and we appreciate its democratic reforms," he said.

He also said he believed a global agreement could be reached on a new fund against climate change before the end of his presidency in 2009.

[B]End business involvement[/B]

Washington is now attempting to apply pressure on individual European businesses to take a harder line on Iran, the BBC's Oana Lungescu in Ljubljana says.

Barclays Bank, based in the UK, has already responded to such pressure and ended all dealings with Iran's Saderat Bank and Bank Melli, which are on the US list of Specially Designated Nationals.

All US businesses trading with anyone on the SDN list must block their accounts immediately and end any business involvement.

Tehran meanwhile has told Iranian banks to transfer assets and investments from European banks to Iran's central bank.

Observers say the move is not only to escape economic sanctions, but also part of a wider government plan to create a huge pan-Iranian bank run on Islamic principles.

The warning of sanctions is a stick Washington is keen to wield, but it is ready to give the carrot one more try, our correspondent says.

EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana will go to Iran on Sunday with a "refreshed" offer of economic and political incentives.

"We affirm the dual track strategy on this issue which was reinforced by the incentives package and reiterate our belief that a mutually satisfactory, negotiated solution remains open to Iran," the summit draft statement adds.

[B]'No illusions'[/B]

As EU leaders prepare to bid goodbye to Mr Bush, they want to focus on what unites Europe and the US, our correspondent says.

They are expected to call for an end to state-sponsored violence in Zimbabwe and to urge the UN secretary general to immediately send a team to monitor human rights.

But on some key challenges like climate change, no-one is predicting a breakthrough, she adds.

The US ambassador to the EU, C Boyden Gray, has warned Europeans not to have any illusions that Washington's position will change "magically" with a new president.

The EU has sought to lead the way by pledging to cut greenhouse gas emissions by 20% by 2020, while the US wants any global agreement on climate change to include commitments by fast-growing economies, such as India and China.

Ahead of the summit, Slovenian Foreign Minister Dimitrij Rupel made reference to the possible tensions, telling reporters: "As in all relationships, the EU and US sometimes have different views."

[B][COLOR=blue]Link[/COLOR][/B] (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7445370.stm)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[COLOR=blue]How many times have sanctions been imposed on iran & all are failing to stop them developing enough uranium to develop nuclear warheads[/COLOR]

[COLOR=blue]When are they going to realise that the only solution is to send in israeli jets & bomb all there reactors[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#0000ff]Iran is a threat to the middle east Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has made repeated calls for the utter destruction of Israel[/COLOR]

[-zuco-]

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has made repeated calls for the utter destruction of Israel
I must say you are quite wrong here Mr. Dynamite.

What he actually said was,


"The regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time,"

He talked about a regime, not a country,

Ahmadinejad did not say he was going to 'wipe Israel off the map' because
no such idiom exists in Persian

Why shouldn't we allow them to develop uranium? America, UK, Russia,
Japan, China, North Korea etc all have nuclear warheads. Who are we
to say who can have them and who can't? We're not the police of the
world and we should stop acting as if we are. There is no suggestion
that Iran is using uranium to develop nuclear weapons anyway, only
American politicians who are intent on taking over the Middle East completely. America's own intelligence report stated that,

Iran halted its nuclear weapons program in 2003

People think we should invade Iran and remove the regime, despite
it being a fully blown democracy. Which is more than can be said
about the UK and USA.

The American military have repetedly used chemical weapons in Iraq
and Afghanistan and nobody bats an eyelid,but Iran try and develop
new ways of making energy and we must invade? Wtf?

[Dynamite]

I must say you are quite wrong here Mr. Dynamite.

What he actually said was,




He talked about a regime, not a country,

Ahmadinejad did not say he was going to 'wipe Israel off the map' because
no such idiom exists in Persian

Why shouldn't we allow them to develop uranium? America, UK, Russia,
Japan, China, North Korea etc all have nuclear warheads. Who are we
to say who can have them and who can't? We're not the police of the
world and we should stop acting as if we are. There is no suggestion
that Iran is using uranium to develop nuclear weapons anyway, only
American politicians who are intent on taking over the Middle East completely. America's own intelligence report stated that,



People think we should invade Iran and remove the regime, despite
it being a fully blown democracy. Which is more than can be said
about the UK and USA.

The American military have repetedly used chemical weapons in Iraq
and Afghanistan and nobody bats an eyelid,but Iran try and develop
new ways of making energy and we must invade? Wtf?

I disagree with you too zuco, do you think they are all stable in the head in countries like iran, iraq, afghanistan.

We interfere to keep global peace you look to much in to conspiracy work by the sounds off it

[-zuco-]

Show me where the conspiracy stuff is? :confused:

Very convenient of you to claim that and
avoid answering my points isn't it ;)

[Dynamite]

Show me where the conspiracy stuff is? :confused:

Very convenient of you to claim that and
avoid answering my points isn't it ;)

:confused: You show me your claims as well, You get it off the internet like i got my post but wake up son!!

I could argue with you all night on this!!

Already sent you a pm to wake you up :) !!

[-zuco-]

:confused: You show me your claims as well

Fair point. The false claim that Ahmadinejad wanted to 'wipe Israel off the map' is detailed here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel).

No nuclear bombs in Iran:

Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/22/AR2005082201447_pf.html)


The head of the UN's nuclear watchdog today said he was not
certain that Iran's nuclear ambitions were entirely peaceful - but added
he had seen no evidence to back allegations that the country was
attempting to build a bomb.

Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/14/iran)

Already sent you a pm to wake you up

I actually find that quite condescending. I ran a website for more than
five years dedicated to spreading real news and not the rubbish you're
being spoon fed on the TV from which you clearly base your opinion.
You, like many others, are just another sheep being shepherded into
agreeing with the opinion of the government to fulfil it's global political
agendas.

These are just a couple of source and a very small amount of data I
can present you with. You may just have opened Pandora's box ;)

Oh and....If you don't believe America would overthrow a democratically elected
Government to pursue it's own political goals, do some research on
'Operation Ajax'.

[reddwarf]

'Operation Ajax'.

Certainly makes for interesting reading. Just typing it into Google comes up with loads of sites with info on it.

Whilst I agree that imposing sanctions has had little impact on Iran I believe it is far too early to be thinking about an invasion. Have we not learnt our lessons from Iraq?

If there is no evidence of WMD's being built in Iran then what valid reason do we have to go to war with them? We can not launch a preemptive strike on the basis that we think they will build WMD's in the future.

[-zuco-]

Certainly makes for interesting reading. Just typing it into Google comes up with loads of sites with info on it.

The CIA even brag about it on their own website.

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol48no2/article10.html

[carlyluvsunited]

It wont be America or the UK that
does the bombing and invading.

America will just use their little
glove puppet ... Israel ... to do
the dirty work.

After all, they have plenty of
experience of bullying Arab
nations around and taking
land off them. How do you
think Israel was created ?

Hopefully, this time, we will be
presented with 'real' evidence
before any invasions take place.

The people of Iraq wish there
was 'real' evidence before their
country was taken over.

If you ask the majority of Iraqi's
if they are happier now with
their new democracy, or with life
under Saddam ... they would
choose Saddam without hesitation.

[Dynamite]

The CIA even brag about it on their own website.

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol48no2/article10.html

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m242/axiemeluv/Smiley/Yawning-Blue.gif

Dont get yourself overworked zuco no im not hiding from you but you do read too much into things

Every link you post is from the internet plus well out of date i can see your well in to your theories!!

Certainly makes for interesting reading. Just typing it into Google comes up with loads of sites with info on it.



Thats it you have hit the nail on the head :)

[-zuco-]

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m242/axiemeluv/Smiley/Yawning-Blue.gif

Dont get yourself overworked zuco no im not hiding from you but you do read too much into things

Every link you post is from the internet i can see your well in to your theories!!

You keep saying that, but once again you've failed to
respond to a single point Ive made. Not a single thing
I've posted in this thread is theory, it's all fact backed
up by hard evidence and quotes from people in high
positions in the US Government, UN etc. Keep calling
it conspiracy if you like, but people on this forum are
clever enough to see that you're now running scared
from this thread and avoiding giving any answers
because quite simply, you don't have any ;)

And you say I read too much into things, yet you hear
a politician mention Uranium and Iran in the same sentence
and think Israel should start a war with them? What rubbish.

[Dynamite]

You keep saying that, but once again you've failed to
respond to a single point Ive made. Not a single thing
I've posted in this thread is theory, it's all fact backed
up by hard evidence and quotes from people in high
positions in the US Government, UN etc. Keep calling
it conspiracy if you like, but people on this forum are
clever enough to see that you're now running scared
from this thread and avoiding giving any answers
because quite simply, you don't have any ;)

And you say I read too much into things, yet you hear
a politician mention Uranium and Iran in the same sentence
and think Israel should start a war with them? What rubbish.

What do you want me to tell you zuco wot can i possibly do to make you believe the truth listen stick to your beliefs ok thats fine with me, I could easily post the opposite to what your saying but my thread however is the real facts & thats as much as im commenting on this matter!!

[-zuco-]

What do you want me to tell you zuco wot can i possibly do to make you believe the truth listen stick to your beliefs ok thats fine with me & thats as much as im commenting on this matter!!
You haven't commented at all except for saying
that you won't comment lol. So thankyou for
proving my point.

If you had any evidence to contradict what
I said you would have given it to me by now.
But as suspected, you haven't :rolleyes:

zuco 1-0 Dynamite

:cool:

[Dynamite]

You haven't commented at all except for saying
that you won't comment lol. So thankyou for
proving my point.

If you had any evidence to contradict what
I said you would have given it to me by now.
But as suspected, you haven't :rolleyes:

zuco 1-0 Dynamite

:cool:

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: zuco 0 dynamite 10000

[haggler]

It wont be America or the UK that
does the bombing and invading.

America will just use their little
glove puppet ... Israel ... to do
the dirty work.

After all, they have plenty of
experience of bullying Arab
nations around and taking
land off them. How do you
think Israel was created ?

Hopefully, this time, we will be
presented with 'real' evidence
before any invasions take place.

The people of Iraq wish there
was 'real' evidence before their
country was taken over.

If you ask the majority of Iraqi's
if they are happier now with
their new democracy, or with life
under Saddam ... they would
choose Saddam without hesitation.carly israel was not formed by the americans but by british mandate for palestine . after world war one where britain promised palestinians a homeland in return for support we reneged on most promises and with the league of nations we came up with the british mandates for palestine and mesopitania . after world war two britain was bankrupt in effect and could no longer maintain its empire and protectorates . we pulled out of india which was a disaster with partition leaving hindus in pakistan and islamists in india . a short war in late 40s paved way for formation of israel . it was only really after the suez crisis that the americans really stepped up interest in the area . the 50s were hugely succesful in america and cheap readily available fuel became the driving force for american prosperity . there were soon more jews in new york area than in most of israel and they exerted a hefty political punch . israel being where it is made it prudent to form strong bonds .. what worries the west more than the nukes is the knowledge that a nuclear iran could not be invaded without potential huge loss of life as nuking the area would decimate oil supply . when we have to pay more to fill up the politicians get voted out . oil and arms are the lifeblood of the worlds richest people . they will not give up the money they have easily .

[United_OG]

if you think the U.S and so on are in iraq/afghanistan etc to keep global safety etc...an that these people are all hereos etc then you're totally clueless!!

pz!

[NateR]

It wont be America or the UK that
does the bombing and invading.

America will just use their little
glove puppet ... Israel ... to do
the dirty work.

After all, they have plenty of
experience of bullying Arab
nations around and taking
land off them. How do you
think Israel was created ?

Hopefully, this time, we will be
presented with 'real' evidence
before any invasions take place.

The people of Iraq wish there
was 'real' evidence before their
country was taken over.

If you ask the majority of Iraqi's
if they are happier now with
their new democracy, or with life
under Saddam ... they would
choose Saddam without hesitation.

I agree with all this, except for the part about Israel being the puppet. I don't think Israel is anyone's puppet. Groups in America like AIPAC and the Evangelical christians have a very strong Influence in Washington and they are rabidly Pro-Israeli....

Dynamite
How many times have sanctions been imposed on iran & all are failing to stop them developing enough uranium to develop nuclear warheads

When are they going to realise that the only solution is to send in israeli jets & bomb all there reactors

Iran is a threat to the middle east Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has made repeated calls for the utter destruction of Israel

LOL. Israel has violated far more sanctions, they blantly violate International Law or totally ignore it, but when it comes the time to condem them or make them follow the Laws, America vetos it.

America just can't tolerate a regime in the Middle-east that has the balls to stand-up America or Israel, unlike their puppets dictators in various Arab Nations...who do anything they want, while their own people suffer if they rise up against them.

No-one in the Middle-east is capable of harming Israel. Israel has the most sophisticated and most powerful Military in the entire Middle-east, not to mention one of the biggest in the entire world and of course Nukes too, lets not forget that.

[Dynamite]

I agree with all this, except for the part about Israel being the puppet. I don't think Israel is anyone's puppet. Groups in America like AIPAC and the Evangelical christians have a very strong Influence in Washington and they are rabidly Pro-Israeli....

Dynamite


LOL. Israel has violated far more sanctions, they blantly violate International Law or totally ignore it, but when it comes the time to condem them or make them follow the Laws, America vetos it.

America just can't tolerate a regime in the Middle-east that has the balls to stand-up America or Israel, unlike their puppets dictators in various Arab Nations...who do anything they want, while their own people suffer if they rise up against them.

No-one in the Middle-east is capable of harming Israel. Israel has the most sophisticated and most powerful Military in the entire Middle-east, not to mention one of the biggest in the entire world and of course Nukes too, lets not forget that.

Send those Israeli jets in & bomb the reactors in iran like they did in syria the over year end of story :)

[-zuco-]

Send those Israeli jets in & bomb the reactors in iran like they did in syria the over year end of story :)
I must say I'm disappointed with your lack of
understanding of this issue and inability to
take on board information and be humble
enough to change your opinion.

[NateR]

Send those Israeli jets in & bomb the reactors in iran like they did in syria the over year end of story :)

Not even going to respond to any of my points? :rolleyes:

[-zuco-]

Not even going to respond to any of my points? :rolleyes:
Don't take it personally Nate, he pretends
to take the high road by not responding
to specific points, when in actual fact he
knows he's wrong and has no idea how to reply ;)

[Dynamite]

Don't take it personally Nate, he pretends
to take the high road by not responding
to specific points, when in actual fact he
knows he's wrong and has no idea how to reply ;)

Sorry been hospital since, I dont have enough personal time to be online all day & sit back & banter on about your views on this topic, My opinion still remains the same despite others rejecting my opinion & zuco i dont want to be posting any specific point's because it is useless like the point's you have posted i will let you carry on regardless :)

[-zuco-]

Sorry been hospital since, I dont have enough personal time to be online all day & sit back & banter on about your views on this topic, My opinion still remains the same despite others rejecting my opinion & zuco i dont want to be posting any specific point's because it is useless like the point's you have posted i will let you carry on regardless :)
Yes my points are useless, but you can't tell me why, how convenient for you :)

Like I've said before mate, everyone here knows
you're running scared and can't answer me so
you're probably doing the right thing by quitting
while you're behind. Don't take it to heart, I'm
not an easy man to debate against, especially
on issues similar to this on which I've amassed
a vast knowledge over the years ;)

[Dynamite]

Yes my points are useless, but you can't tell me why, how convenient for you :)

Like I've said before mate, everyone here knows
you're running scared and can't answer me so
you're probably doing the right thing by quitting
while you're behind. Don't take it to heart, I'm
not an easy man to debate against, especially
on issues similar to this on which I've amassed
a vast knowledge over the years


http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/37.gif Just noticed your still bantering http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/76.gif You have amassed nothing at all & i run from nobody (except the taxman) :p

[-zuco-]

http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/37.gif Just noticed your still bantering http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/76.gif You have amassed nothing at all & i run from nobody (except the taxman) :p

Somebody should enlighten you as to my occupation ;)

Also, you should answer my points instead of just claiming you can.

[haggler]

I must say you are quite wrong here Mr. Dynamite.

What he actually said was,




He talked about a regime, not a country,

Ahmadinejad did not say he was going to 'wipe Israel off the map' because
no such idiom exists in Persian

Why shouldn't we allow them to develop uranium? America, UK, Russia,
Japan, China, North Korea etc all have nuclear warheads. Who are we
to say who can have them and who can't? We're not the police of the
world and we should stop acting as if we are. There is no suggestion
that Iran is using uranium to develop nuclear weapons anyway, only
American politicians who are intent on taking over the Middle East completely. America's own intelligence report stated that,



People think we should invade Iran and remove the regime, despite
it being a fully blown democracy. Which is more than can be said
about the UK and USA.

The American military have repetedly used chemical weapons in Iraq
and Afghanistan and nobody bats an eyelid,but Iran try and develop
new ways of making energy and we must invade? Wtf?
ill take that challenge mr zuco . how is iran more of a democracy than the united states ? 6 of its 12 higher council members by law are islamic clerics ---- how is that in any way democratic ? also why would you wait until iran has developed the bomb if you felt them a significant enough threat to use it on you or your allies . if we are being fair we should allow every country the means to have a bomb of its own . trouble is when some mad mullah gets his paws on one and wipes out your city its too late to go oh who thought he would use it . we all know the world runs on oil and that all steps will be taken to ensure its continued supply . we also know that those in charge of the largest western nations are members of strongly christian bodies which are pledged to minimise the spread of islam . nothing much has changed since the 10th and eleventh century crusades . the middle east is still the battleground of religious ideologies . the only reason russia and china have nukes is the west were in no position to stop them as the scientists who developed the tech involved were half absorbed by the states and half by russia . so its all down to sides and whose your country is on . i do not subscribe to the i have a gun so my enemy should have one theory you seem to be championing . i would say i have a big stick -- step out of line and i am whacking you with it .

[-zuco-]

ill take that challenge mr zuco . how is iran more of a democracy than the united states ? 6 of its 12 higher council members by law are islamic clerics ---- how is that in any way democratic ? also why would you wait until iran has developed the bomb if you felt them a significant enough threat to use it on you or your allies . if we are being fair we should allow every country the means to have a bomb of its own . trouble is when some mad mullah gets his paws on one and wipes out your city its too late to go oh who thought he would use it . we all know the world runs on oil and that all steps will be taken to ensure its continued supply . we also know that those in charge of the largest western nations are members of strongly christian bodies which are pledged to minimise the spread of islam . nothing much has changed since the 10th and eleventh century crusades . the middle east is still the battleground of religious ideologies . the only reason russia and china have nukes is the west were in no position to stop them as the scientists who developed the tech involved were half absorbed by the states and half by russia . so its all down to sides and whose your country is on . i do not subscribe to the i have a gun so my enemy should have one theory you seem to be championing . i would say i have a big stick -- step out of line and i am whacking you with it .

America's elections are rife with voting fraud. They use electronic voting
systems which, by the government's own admission can he hacked into
wirelessly. That's why it isn't democratic.

I would challenge you to tell me why you consider Iran a threat to our
country. Iran has never invaded another country..ever. Declaring war
on either Britain or America is just plain suicide and no country in the
world would be stupid enough to do it. The launch of a missile aimed
at britain or America would mean the complete annihilation of Iran and
it's population due to the warheads that would undoubtedly be sent to
rain down in revenge.

I'm not championing the theory of 'I have a gun so my enemy should
have one', I'm just saying that we're just a small island with a tiny
population, who are we to say who can have nuclear weapons? If they
can't have them why can we? Are we hypocrites? The entirity of this
paragragh is irrelevant anyway because as stated earlier in the thread,
there is no proof that Iran is attempting to make a nuclear bomb and a
US intelligence agency report says Iran abandoned it's nuclear program
back in 2003.

The only reason certain countries do strive to develop nuclear bombs is
obvious. It's so America will keep well clear of them ala North Korea. As
soon as it became clear that the midget ruler had nuclear capability
America didn't want to know.

Its America and Britain that's trying to start a war with Iran, not the
other way around. Remember the 15 British sailors captured by Iran?
They admitted to being sent to spy on Iran by their superiors. Coincidentlly
(yeah right) the only female to be captured was Faye tulley who hours
earlier gave an interview in which she spoke of her devotion to the job
and guilt of leaving her daughter at home. only in a neo-con world
do 'coincidences' like this happen :rolleyes:

Then came the disgusting headline in The Sun, "Who do you think you
are kidding Mr. Ahmadinejad?". Obviously comparing the man to a certain
Mr. Hitler. British propoganda at it's worst.

The Iranians were slagged off for showing the sailors on the TV, Britain
would never do that of course. We prefer to strip them naked and make
them form human pyramids with bags over their heads before taking pictures.

The Iraq war was illegal, it was started on fabricated evidence and is a war
crime. George W Bush and Tony Blair should be in the Hague standing trial
for mass genocide. They're personally responsible for sending over the troops
and starting a bogus war that has resulted in the loss of over ONE MILLION
Iraqi lives, many of which are children. So somebody please give me one
good reason why we should start another war in Iran because I fail to see
the logic in such stupidity and naivity.

[versa]

I hate politics and I don't trust any government or politician. Thank you.

P.S. "A trustworthy person will never want to enter politics." - Versa

[haggler]

you contradict yourself by saying on one hand we leave korea alone because it has nukes yet iran would never be silly enough to fire a nuke at us because it would face certain annihilation . the theory of mutual assured destruction is only sound when dealing with leaders who care about the populace .

when you are dealing with an ideology that believes that it will have a great afterlife if they die for the cause that is a dangerous assumption to make .

as for voting fraud are you really trying to tell me the iranian system is immune to errors ? and how does that translate to the u.k which uses ballot boxes same as iran ?

and the reason for starting another war are many and varied . the first is to gain more control in the region . throughout history one country has invaded another to gain land mineral wealth slaves or to ethnically cleanse . we brits were really rather good at it and bashed many a foriegn bonce and stole their land and valuables over the years and we really are quite horrid . when fritz tried doing it he was the evil hun . thats how it is full of hypocrisy . the big kid in the playground beats on the little one . i personally would rather be the bully than the bullied .

if i lived in iran/iraq/afghanistan i would detest the americans and brits as invaders and occupiers . we should have pulled out of iraq as soon as saddam was captured but generals need conflicts to justify the forces under them arms dealers need wars to make money from and we only really care when it comes to our own back garden . 911 was manna from heaven for bush and blair as the outrage it caused meant any steps to bring the wrong doers to justice would be backed . i believe we will get a terror outrage once every couple of years so as to keep us backing the war on terror . one death is a tragedy a million is a statistic .

i am sure that us/uk forces have not killed 50000 iraquis never mind 1 million . my real problem is that we are meddling in and prolonging a civil war . we should pull out let them kill each other till one side wins and a dictator takes control again .

[-zuco-]

you contradict yourself by saying on one hand we leave korea alone because it has nukes yet iran would never be silly enough to fire a nuke at us because it would face certain annihilation . the theory of mutual assured destruction is only sound when dealing with leaders who care about the populace .

Only contradictory if you twist what I say. having nukes is a great deterrant to any country contempleting invasion. Aiming them at another country is another story. Where's the evidence that Iran are aiming there non-existent nuclear weapons at another country? Just like the weapons, the evidence is also non-existent.

when you are dealing with an ideology that believes that it will have a great afterlife if they die for the cause that is a dangerous assumption to make .

So we invade the entire middle east because they believe in a form of heaven? :confused: There is a general misconception that ALL muslims think that if they die as martyrs they will get 77 virgins etc etc, there is a very small percentage of the muslim community who actually believe in that nonsense so why are you generalizing a whole country who have never shown any hostility towards our own?

as for voting fraud are you really trying to tell me the iranian system is immune to errors ? and how does that translate to the u.k which uses ballot boxes same as iran ?

Show me where I said the iranian voting system is immune to errors. That's right, I never said it so stop putting words in my mouth.

What about the Labour politicians arrested and charged for voting fraud during the last General Election? One judge described the goings on to that of a 'banana republic'.

and the reason for starting another war are many and varied . the first is to gain more control in the region . throughout history one country has invaded another to gain land mineral wealth slaves or to ethnically cleanse . we brits were really rather good at it and bashed many a foriegn bonce and stole their land and valuables over the years and we really are quite horrid . when fritz tried doing it he was the evil hun . thats how it is full of hypocrisy . the big kid in the playground beats on the little one . i personally would rather be the bully than the bullied .

So we invade a peaceful nation and kill hundreds of thousands more innocent people in the process just to gain more control in a region that has nothing to do with us? That's absolute crap haggler and I'm surprised such stupidity is emmanating from an apparently intelligent man. You're admitting that it is wrong to invade them but say we should do it anyway, strange logic you're using there.

if i lived in iran/iraq/afghanistan i would detest the americans and brits as invaders and occupiers . we should have pulled out of iraq as soon as saddam was captured but generals need conflicts to justify the forces under them arms dealers need wars to make money from and we only really care when it comes to our own back garden . 911 was manna from heaven for bush and blair as the outrage it caused meant any steps to bring the wrong doers to justice would be backed . i believe we will get a terror outrage once every couple of years so as to keep us backing the war on terror . one death is a tragedy a million is a statistic .

The biggest arms dealers in the world are the bush family and the bin Laden family, who, incidentally were in business together up until 9/11. Ever heard of the Carlysle Group?

The people getting rich from the wars are the politicians at the very top level. Dick Cheney was chairman of Halliburto, a company which was awarded multi million pound contracts to rebuild Iraq. It didn't have to bid for these contracts with other companies, it was given them because Cheney was connected to it. you're right that a terorist incident is needed to gain public support, it's just coincidence that they pop up very time public support is dwindling isn't it? There's a lot of coincidences these days huh? ;)
Another coincidence is the London bombings, hey earned Labour public backing t push through the anti terror bill in Parliament. There's a security company called Visor Consultancy, run by a man called Peter power that was running Government sanctioned drills on the very same day to ee how the security services would respons to bombs going off at the same exact train stations at the same exact time. Another coincidence? The odds of this happening are astronomical.

FACT: Governments use terror to control us and they have been doing it for centuries.

Every major terrorist incident in the last few decades can be traced back to the government of the corresponding country. Do some esearch on 'Operation Gladio' for proof.

i am sure that us/uk forces have not killed 50000 iraquis never mind 1 million . my real problem is that we are meddling in and prolonging a civil war . we should pull out let them kill each other till one side wins and a dictator takes control again .

A Government thinktank said three years ago that 650,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed as a result of the invasion. Two years on and the deaths are still occurring just as frequently. the civil war in Iraq benefits USA/UK because it gives them a reason to stay. But let's not settle with Iraq, we've 'liberated' them already, let's go and 'liberate' Iran and install a puppet Government there too huh?

.....

[Dynamite]

Somebody should enlighten you as to my occupation

Also, you should answer my points instead of just claiming you can.

Part time bum who sit's in bed all day :p like i said before zuco i dont look up on the internet like you do to gather your points & post theories, Mr haggler enlightened you with a hint about iran

trouble is when some mad mullah gets his paws on one and wipes out your city its too late to go oh who thought he would use it/nothing much has changed since the 10th and eleventh century crusades . the middle east is still the battleground of religious ideologies

And what haggler said is true, Very true!!

[-zuco-]

Part time bum who sit's in bed all day :p like i said before zuco i dont look up on the internet like you do to gather your points & post theories, Mr haggler enlightened you with a hint about iran

So because I work part time means I'm wrong? Little tip for you pal,
I work part time to get me out of bed in the mornings, I don't need
to work at all if I don't have to!

As for thee thread, you keep insisting you're right without posting
anything pertinent to the topic at hand, keep doing it and I'll delete
it as spam because your crap isn't contributing anything to the thread.

[Forever_United]

You have amassed nothing at all &i run from nobody (except the taxman) :p

haha ! u ran into that like running head first into a lorry at 60mph :D

[Jennaluvsunited]

So because I work part time means I'm wrong? Little tip for you pal,
I work part time to get me out of bed in the mornings, I don't need
to work at all if I don't have to!

As for thee thread, you keep insisting you're right without posting
anything pertinent to the topic at hand, keep doing it and I'll delete
it as spam because your crap isn't contributing anything to the thread.

I can see my dad hit a nerve with you, Im going 2 enter this debate you talk rubbish zuco i speak up you just think you know it all because you state that you sat down for 2 years studying world affairs why arent you in the parliament for god sake you really think you know it all, My dad if you take notice does not post rubbish like you do & neither does he banters on like you, You as a super mod should create the impression of a stable community, You also lack Maturity to be considered as a super mod!!

[-zuco-]

I can see my dad hit a nerve with you, Im going 2 enter this debate you talk rubbish zuco i speak up you just think you know it all because you state that you sat down for 2 years studying world affairs why arent you in the parliament for god sake you really think you know it all, My dad if you take notice does not post rubbish like you do & neither does he banters on like you, You as a super mod should create the impression of a stable community, You also lack Maturity to be considered as a super mod!!

Aww protecting your Daddy, that's cute :)

It's a shame your Dad refuses point blank to rebut any of the points I have
made, maybe then I'd have a modicum of respect for him as a knowledgeable
person on this particular subject, but instead I find my opinion of him dwindling
as the thread develops.

Being a mod doesn't mean I turn into a robot, I'm still allowed to express my
opinion believe it or not ;)

I don't know it all because I state that I sat down for 2 years, though I'm not
quite sure where I said that :confused: The reason why I've torn your Dad to
pieces in this thread is because I know a hell of a lot more about the subject
matter than he does. It really is that simple ;)

[Jennaluvsunited]

Aww protecting your Daddy, that's cute

It's a shame your Dad refuses point blank to rebut any of the points I have
made, maybe then I'd have a modicum of respect for him as a knowledgeable
person on this particular subject, but instead I find my opinion of him dwindling
as the thread develops.

Being a mod doesn't mean I turn into a robot, I'm still allowed to express my
opinion believe it or not

I don't know it all because I state that I sat down for 2 years, though I'm not
quite sure where I said that The reason why I've torn your Dad to
pieces in this thread is because I know a hell of a lot more about the subject
matter than he does. It really is that simple ;)

You said it all 2 me on msn claiming 2 have studied world affairs for 2 years & no zuco you cant threaten to close threads all because he hit a nerve with you, You take things too personal, My dad is allowed 2 state his opinion in which he showed more maturity than you because you waffle on thinking you know it all & you dont know it all to judge my dad or claim to have knowledge on world affairs anybody can sit down & gather conspiracy theories, Have you heard yourself all the time along this thread all you can do is post link's!! which is already been mentioned as useless & out dated, However you again lack the criteria of being a member of staff like i already mentioned you have proven that already tonight you get angry easily, You should take things more with a pinch of salt anybody can see you got ratty over the part time bum statement ;)

[-zuco-]

You said it all 2 me on msn claiming 2 have studied world affairs for 2 years & no zuco you cant threaten to close threads all because he hit a nerve with you, You take things too personal, My dad is allowed 2 state his opinion in which he showed more maturity than you because you waffle on thinking you know it all & you dont know it all to judge my dad or claim to have knowledge on world affairs anybody can sit down & gather conspiracy theories, Have you heard yourself all the time along this thread all you can do is post link's!! which is already been mentioned as useless & out dated, However you again lack the criteria of being a member of staff like i already mentioned you have proven that already tonight you get angry easily, You should take things more with a pinch of salt anybody can see you got ratty over the part time bum statement ;)
You and your Dad should start a comedy double act :)

I don't claim that I know it all, but from what I can see in this thread, I know
a hell of a lot more than your Dad on this subject. How is it mature to keep
saying the other person is wrong but not tell him why he's wrong or offer up
evidence to back your claims? To me, that's how a child debates, not a grown
man. Where exactly did I say I would close the thread? I actually like this thread,
it makes your Dad look quite silly and allows me to discuss a subject I know quite
a lot about.

You said all I do is post links, but only in one post have I posted links, all of the
rest have been long, detailed, well thought out posts explaining my opinion and
the reasons I came to my opinion. Your Dad on the other hand debates as
follows, "You're wrong because I say so".

As for me lacking the criteria for being a member of staff, feel free to contact the
admin and make a complaint about me, it's easy to do so crack on with it. But
making your Daddy look silly isn't reason enough to demote me and I'm certain
they'll back me up.

[carlyluvsunited]

Now, now ...

Calm down, calm down !

Jenna will defend her Dad if he is right or wrong !!

Which is a good thing ...

I think you should agree to disagree ...

And move on now.

Before things get out of hand and I have to spank you all ... :p

[-zuco-]

Of course she'll defend her Dad, but he should
be teaching her to do the decent thing and admit
when you are truly clueless on a subject, as he is
with this one:p

[Forever_United]

Now, now ...

Calm down, calm down !

Jenna will defend her Dad if he is right or wrong !!

Which is a good thing ...

I think you should agree to disagree ...

And move on now.

Before things get out of hand and I have to spank you all ... :p

Woo :p lets get out of hand ;) :D

[Jennaluvsunited]

Of course she'll defend her Dad, but he should
be teaching her to do the decent thing and admit
when you are truly clueless on a subject, as he is
with this one:p

Im not one for causing trouble & neither is my dad but zuco is however turning this thread in 2 a points scoring thread with my dad, However my dad has insisted times & times again he does not gather information from the internet 2 debate with zuco who is mr right & who is mr wrong, Zuco just does not know when 2 shut up at times, This thread should be kept to topic & let other members post there thought's!!

[-zuco-]

Im not one for causing trouble & neither is my dad but zuco is however turning this thread in 2 a points scoring thread with my dad, However my dad has insisted times & times again he does not gather information from the internet 2 debate with zuco who is mr right & who is mr wrong, Zuco just does not know when 2 shut up at times, This thread should be kept to topic & let other members post there thought's!!

All the PM's I'm getting are telling me I' m right. It doesn't matter
where my information is gathered, what matters is that your Dad
has so far failed to counter it with anything of substance. You can't
escape it just by saying, "Well it's from the internet so it can't be true"
because it clearly doesn't work and just makes you look desperate to
escape the debate because you don't have the knowledge to post
anything intelligent on it.

Seriously now Jen, if you want to carry on a silly argument, use the
PM system because all further off topic posts will be deleted, but if
you're willing to try and debate with me on the thread subject, please do ;)

[reddwarf]

Before things get out of hand and I have to spank you all ... :p

Can I watch? :D

I've agreed with Dynamite on other World issues but agree with what zuco has said on this issue.

This may be your specialist subject on Mastermind zuco :p but there's no need to keep going back and forth on this issue because there is unlikely to be a conclusion to the debate that will please both parties and although it may be keeping you 2 entertained it's getting rather tedious for the rest of us imo.

[-zuco-]

Can I watch? :D

I've agreed with Dynamite on other World issues but agree with what zuco has said on this issue.

This may be your specialist subject on Mastermind zuco :p but there's no need to keep going back and forth on this issue because there is unlikely to be a conclusion to the debate that will please both parties and although it may be keeping you 2 entertained it's getting rather tedious for the rest of us.

I know what you mean Dwarf. I tried to keep it
entertaining by posting lots of relevant facts and
figures and tried to get certain people to respond
to them instead of wriggling out of it but alas, it
wasn't to be :rolleyes:

[carlyluvsunited]

This is dead in the water now ...

Nothing is going to be achieved here is it ?

Except an ongoing argument which as Dwarf
pointed out is just going to bore everyone.

You can carry that on by PM if you should wish to.

But this thread is closed now.

[-zuco-]

:rolleyes: