Great Fergie Signings

[MUFC]

It's been 20 years and although he has had his fair share of poor signings (Kleberson, Djemba-2, Veron, etc etc), there have been a lot of signings that have turned out to be just amazing and have shaped our recent history. A few of them in my book are -

Peter Schmeichel - £600,000 - not bad for 10 years of being the best in the world!

Eric Cantona - £1.2m - Absolute genius. Huge gamble, paid off.

Andy Cole £6m + Gillespie - who would have thought it at the time he could score so many for us and fit in so well. Anyone think we missed shearer during this time? How about his partnership with £12m Yorkie? Best partnership, ever?

Keane £3.5m - Record breaking deal at the time, another big gamble, what do we think - good signing? More like incredible signing!

Heinze - £6m - Our best defender easily. Epitomises United past players, how we have missed him. Would you swap him for ANYBODY defensively? I think terrys awesome but still no!

Ryan Giggs - thrown in at 17, protected from the media incredibly by Fergie for around 2 years. 15 years later whos still flying down the wing?? Even playing in central midfield!

Butt, Beckham, Phil & Gary, Scholes - had to step up quickly and fill some big shoes. Everything/one against them to succeed, incl. hansen (lol) - immediate success. Fergie gets the credit for the risk he took and the guidance he gave them. All he asked for in return was respect, loyalty and commitment. Ruud take note.

Ruud Van Nistelrooy! - £19m Stuck with him for a year after first wanting him, through a horrendous injury, still splashed a fortune on him. In return ruud gives us 150 goals in 200 odd games. Unhappy ending maybe but Fergie made a fantstic signing im sure youll all agree.

Rooney - £30m (total amount of deal) Who thinks this is alot?? You can hold this against every signing mourinho has made and say this one is of more value. He is worth at least a hundred!! He is only 20 and in the top 3 in the world surely. Best player for United and england already. His potential is outstanding and I thank god fergie went out and splashed the cash when newcastle were all making us laugh with their bid. He is the future for our club. Imagine if arsenal or chelski got him??

Teddy Sheringham (forget how much?) After Cantonas departure who could replace the king?? Teddy seemed like hed always been there, continuing our domestic dominance and helping us win the CL.

Solskjaer - £1.5m (shearer goes for 15m at the same time) This guy hit over 20 goals one season from the bench!!! Absolute legend and has given us almost ten years aswell. Bargain for the greatest sub EVER!

VDS - Who could replace schmeichel?? No one will be as good as this guy in our lifetime I expect. Fergie has had trouble but so have the players stepping into his shadow. Impossible act to follow but a 36 yr old free signing has finally done it.

How about Bruce (never capped!?), Robbo, Ince and kanchelskis (who was ***** in his first season and looked like never making it). All of those went on to be big players for us, some legends. Hughes had spells at Barca and Bayern but gave all his best years to us. Irwin had over ten years of consistancy at left back. How many mistakes did he make over that time?

You name me a manager and ill show you bad signings. If we had benitez we could have crouch and long balls. If we had mourinho we could have scum like drogba and dull football. If we had wenger we could have had the likes of stepanov, cygan or even francis jeffers, not to mention NO english youth whatsoever.

[20LEGEND]

Well written dude.

Just shows how over-rated Fergie's bad signings are. But then again, with a great manager like Fergie, you don't expect mistakes ...

[Gattuso]

Im new so I only just read this and I couldn't agree more.

One his greatest signings for next-to-nowt was Denis Irwin, what a consistent performer he was for years.

Even the likes of Ronny Johnsen, Jaap Stam and Jesper Blomqvist were vital parts of the 99 Treble Winning Team.

OK we wont mention Jordi Cruyff or Karel Poborski but even those two scored some good goals for us, remember Karel's run and shot from the half way line against Leeds?

[Schmeichel#1]

Andrei Kanchelskis, what a buy he was by Ferguson...

Amazing winger, who scored his fair share of goals...

[manutdc]

Sir Alex has without a doubt been an amazing manager, but to mention only the bad buys of other managers is unfair.

Benitez has brought Xabi Alonso and Luis Garcia to Liverpool, both of whom are quite good signings.

Mourinho has made Joe Cole into a star, granted he didn't sign Cole, but he's made Cole the player he is today. He also brought Robben to Chelsea, and now Shevchenko and Ballack (but judgment can be passed on the latter two as the season goes on).

Wenger brought along a certain Theirry Henry to Arsenal, Cesc Fabregas, Patrick Vieira (as much as we can hate him he was a good player). Rosicky looks like a class buy as well.

[Schmeichel#1]

Yes, i agree with you that it's unfair....

[spoonofmilk]

He was only pointing out that those managers have also made 'bad' signings... we could go on all day debating who's good and who's bad, but this was just an example to show that what is unfair is the slating Fergie gets for signing duffers when other managers have exhibited mistakes. Tis all just examples...

[Schmeichel#1]

He was only pointing out that those managers have also made 'bad' signings... we could go on all day debating who's good and who's bad, but this was just an example to show that what is unfair is the slating Fergie gets for signing duffers when other managers have exhibited mistakes. Tis all just examples...
Absolutely, nobody is disputing that all...:confused:

[Jshaw]

Djemba, Kleberson, Miller . . . the list goes on lol

[SalfordRed]

Those of you who know me from SFT and the various off-shoot forums since will know my views on Fergie, but this is the one area where he isn’t overly bad. That said it is more through luck than judgment, and he doesn’t really deserve an ounce of credit for an awful lot of his signings.

Mourinho also brought Robben to Chelsea, and now Shevchenko and Ballack (but judgment can be passed on the latter two as the season goes on).

You can’t seriously grant a manager any real credit at all for such signings. When you are talking about players the entire EPL would take if they had the chance then it is just a case of who has the biggest wallet/sexier club. The manager is pretty much an irrelevance as far as the likes of Keane, Sheva and Rooney are concerned. Every manager wants such players, it is just a matter of being able to get them.

As far as judging Ballack and Sheva over the course of the year, that is something that gets my back up. Why do fans insist on judging managers signings only with the benefit of hindsight? It is a totally unfair and misleading form of assessment. The quality of a signing should be assessed solely on the information the manager had to make the decision on, so the only additional information a fan should have before making a final assessment is the what role the manager has signed the player for. You shouldn’t judge a manager regarding things he couldn’t possibly know.

To offer a few examples from Fergie’s era, lets take Webb, Wallace and Jordi for starters. Neil Webb is a name who regularly crops up on lists of Fergie’s worst ever buys despite being a superb acquisition. The Webb/Robson midfield partnership was outstanding for England and there were few Reds around who weren’t thrilled to see it being deployed for United, and yet several years later these same fans are blaming Fergie for not knowing Webb was going to suffer what effectively amounted to a career ending injury after just four games in the Red shirt. While he did come back and play on for some time he was never close to the same player.

You can’t legislate for such things like the challenge on Webb (can anyone remember who it was? I keep wanting to say Johnny Ekstrom, but it doesn’t quite ring true), Wallace’s MS or Jordi’s mental health issues, and the consequences shouldn’t factor into any judgment of the transfer. Webb was a fantastic transfer that just didn’t work out. Veron is the one the really annoys me. Virtually the whole of our support was raving about the signing, and yet now many of the same people use the signing as a tool to criticise Fergie despite there being no warning signs whatever.

If we had benitez we could have crouch and long balls.

Harsh in the extreme. For starters Crouch is well acknowledged to be pretty mediocre in the air, and no side has ever gone for the long ball game with Crouch at the point, least of all Liverpool.

It isn’t like Benitez went out and purchased the long ball focal point from a manager known exclusively for the long ball game - like say the pioneer of the stratagem, John Beck - from a team who employed nothing but the long ball (and even left the grass long to aid them) like say Cambridge. See what I did there? Are we perhaps evoking memories of a certain Fergie signing from the summer of 92?

Dublin was an out and out long ball player, so even if your Benitez barb was accurate Fergie was sure as hell guilty of the same offence. Moreover Fergie had previous, and actually deployed Dublin in such an unpalatable manner after signing him. To take a high profile example from both before and after, what United fan can fail to swell with pride at the memory of Fergie’s artistic tactical brilliance as far as European plan Bs are concerned; Athinaikos in 91 where we ended up hoofing the ball up to Pallister as a centre forward after going 180 minutes unable to break the Greeks down. Even more embarrassing was the European Cup tie two years later in Istanbul where we were unable to break down Fener and saw our young centre half Gazza being brought on in the dying minutes. This perplexed us, right up until Dublin started stripping off next to him, at which point we started to feel shame. The big hoof is bad enough, but specifically bringing on a long throw merchant when chasing a goal is just downright humiliating.

If we had mourinho we could have scum like drogba and dull football.

As opposed to scum like (to offer one from each decade) Milne, Keane and Ronaldo, a triumvirate who make Drogba look positively saintly. As for dull football, have you ever watched a typical Fergie team? Given your age I can forgive you for not remembering the dross he served up in his opening half decade or so - a period so bad incidentally that Fergie managed to empty OT like no man before him in the modern era. Despite the vast reduction in capacity Fergie still managed to bore the fans away to such an extent that OT got through three seasons the best part of 20% short of capacity, three years on the bounce where our average failed to hit 40k. Even Fergie’s early success came with a fairly negative team built along the classic Forest/Liverpool lines of sitting deep, inviting the opposition on and blitzing on the break. Hardly United football. It was really only with the advent of the Busby influence from Stiles and Kidd that we began to entertain once more.

What I find hard to believe is that you’ve sat through the last two years and actually think our football has been any less dull than Chelsea’s... personally I’d say we’ve been way worse than them in the entertainment stakes over the last two seasons. Certain fans groups haven’t taken to calling Fergie Sexton just for the hell of it you know :)



For the record up until four years ago I had Fergie’s singings broken down as fifteen good to twenty-one bad, with another ten obvious and eight he was forced to settle for. Not a dreadful record by any means, but nothing to write home about. Of course in the last four years he has had an appalling time, not least because the Lady seems to have deserted him.

A few points regarding the names you quoted above:

Peter Schmeichel: Undoubtedly a great player, but one where the Lady smiled on Fergie. We had our goalkeeping future sorted with Bosnich and Walsh. It was only when the DOE refused to grant Bosnich a work permit when his student visa expired that we were forced to look at the market for a new keeper.

Eric Cantona: Had a huge impact, but again was a case of Fergie’s fortune. But for Dublin’s broken leg we wouldn’t have been in the market at all, but for Francis’ determination to hold on to his man we would have got Hirst, and but for the bid to take Irwin back to Leeds we never would have made the off the cuff offer for Cantona. A more unplanned signing is hard to imagine. It was the act of a desperate man who had run out of ideas. He had even put a bid in for Dean Holdsworth during the run of seven league games without a win.

Roy Keane, Ruud and Rooney: Great signings, but signings every single manager would have made had they the money. You don’t get credit for spotting a world class player well acknowledged by pretty much everyone as a world class player. If anything Keane is an example of how Fergie screwed up. Before he ‘rebuilt’ our scouting system we would never have missed a player of Keane’s ability playing in the Irish league. Pre-Fergie we would have been signing him from Cobh for tens of thousands rather than partaking in bidding wars with Blackburn. Incidentally I’d love to know why you regarded Keane in 93 a gamble.

Gabriel Heinze: An appalling signing, and there is no serious way anyone can dispute the fact even if they rate him as a player. We had three experienced left backs in Phil, Silvestre and O’Shea, plus Fortune as an emergency standby on top of a promising pair of reserves. Moreover we’d just given Phil a huge new contract that no one sane would ever take off our hands (thank the lord for David Moyes). There was no pressing need for a new left back, but we did have huge holes elsewhere in the squad. Trouble was after we’d spent such a vast sum on a fourth left back we simple didn’t have any money. In fact signing the totally unnecessary Heinze not only came damn close to costing us Rooney, it caused us to miss out on Carrick, which looks like it may cost us two years and an extra £10million. We were just lucky the takeover happened last year or we would have been unable to afford the much needed likes of Park. Heinze was at best a very bad use of limited funds.

Andy Cole: Another obvious class player long before he came to OT, and another player Fergie didn’t actually want. He had spent three months using Scholes as third striker while he chased Collymore before finally giving up and having to ‘settle’ for Cole. Even then he didn’t particularly want Cole as he did offer him to Blackburn when he tried to nab Shearer, and two years later offered him to Villa in part exchange for Yorke when he thought Kluivert was on his way. With no other player has Fergie had so much fortune saving him from his own poor judgment.

Bruce: Great player, but yet again not the man Fergie wanted. Terry Butcher was a done deal, but he broke his leg during his farewell performance at Rangers, and we were forced to look elsewhere.

Robbo: Obvious signing, hence the huge fee... of course he was halfway to his testimonial before Fergie darkened our door.

[Schmeichel#1]

Great and informative post, Salford Red.

[manutdc]

Indeed, great post, SR.

I guess it's true, we shouldn't judge signings based on their performance after they moved. Managers can't see into the future, after all!

What defines a great signing though? Getting a player that nobody knew about who turns out to be a real star (Schmeichel), or just bringing in players who are already known, but still have a huge impact at the club (Rooney, Ruud, etc.)? I think both kinds of players could be considered great signings in their own respects.

[SalfordRed]

There are no meaningful hard and fast rules. The only real rule for a good deal is the players addition improves your team proportional to the outlay - note the subtle and distinct difference between plays well for and improves the club.

Context is king. Take Ballack as case in point. For Chelsea he is a reasonable addition, adding a great player to their squad, offering a marginal improvement to their team, and not denting their budget. For us he’d have been a dreadful bit of business. Sure he’d add a lot more to our team than he will for Chelsea, but the cost is vast (yes I know he was free, but that contract... we are talking over £25million) and given his age we’d need to be in the market for his long term replacement immediately. Trouble is with that sort of outlay we simply couldn’t afford to bring anyone else in. That contract would tear apart our budget and would be a short term gain for significant long term pain. My earlier comments regarding Heinze is another example; spending a vast sum and wiping out the budget on a marginal upgrade, while huge gaps remained elsewhere in the squad. Heinze could have been faultless as an individual but he’d still be a bad signing in that context.


You can’t ever give a manager credit for signing a proven first class player in itself. By definition any signing is a gamble as far as players settling in is concerned, and proven players are very expensive. There really isn’t much you can get from these deals. If they work out you get what you paid for, and that is about as good as it gets. Where they can get credit with these signings is spotting the missing link, choosing the right proven first class player if they had multiple options, and even more importantly which proven first class players they take a pass on. Budget management and squad balance are the two big tests.


Let me give you an example of a bad transfer in both these respects, that looks a good acquisition with hindsight when we are blind to the context. Paul Parker. A very good player for sure, and obviously an important component of our first two EPL titles, but it wasn’t the best bit of business.

During 90/91 Denis Irwin had been a revelation as our new right back, not only as a fantastic defender but also a truly superb attacking threat. By buying a right back and moving Irwin across to the left Fergie wasted half Irwin’s talent, reducing him to merely a great player. Moreover Parker was weak in the air just like Irwin, and combined with Bruce’s average height we became very vulnerable to long diagonal balls, a major thorn in our side for several years. We needed a left back in the summer of 91, not a small right back/man marker who cost a bomb... a Tony Dorigo for example, who just happened to be available and moved to Leeds for £1.3m while we were fighting Spurs for Parker. Not only was Dorigo substantially cheaper, he was the best part of two years younger, would have allowed Irwin to stay in his best position, wasn’t as weak in the air, had only slightly less international experience (both had been in the WC squad for example, although Dorigo struggled for competitive minutes as he had Pearce in front of him) and the added bonus of coming from a more intense club environment.

[azer1990]

you are right GREAT SIGINGS espcially the GREAT DANE AND KING CANTONA but we got a legend in da making ROONEY, and i see Giuseppi Rossi being amazin

[Schmeichel#1]

Yes, i do see Rossi as a real prospect up front.

[manutdc]

To be fair, sometimes you can't quite put all the blame on managers for trying to get proven top class players - if they get someone who is unproven and he flops, the manager gets slagged. Top class purchases are very often the "safer" method.

Regarding Heinze, while we didn't absolutely need to buy a left back, our options there would have been either Silvestre (who we all know is very prone to the costly mistake) and O'Shea. We had Phil, but surely you'd agree that he isn't the very best.

I'm not old enough to remember Irwin playing as a right-back very often - would he have been better than Gary?

[Schmeichel#1]

We didn't really need him, but i'm delighted we got Heinze..one of the best players in our current squad.

[MiddRed]

How can u say that about players like Andy Cole the man is the second highest goalscorer in Premier League history and United second highest European goalscorer- you talk crap SalfordRed fair enough SAF has made some awful signings but so has every other manager. His good points far far far outweigh his bad points-and u call yourself a red. IMMEDIATELY REMOVE YOURSELF TO THE BLUE HALF OUR GREAT CITY. Gabriel Heinze would get into any team in Europe-NO QUESTIONS ASKED:mad:

[SalfordRed]

How can u say that about players like Andy Cole
Say what about Cole? I’m a huge Cole fan, and am in no doubt the loss of his dynamic movemnent and high work rate upfront is one of the main reasons our goals tally has declined in the 4.5 seasons since his premature sale. Moreover selling him totally undermined Seba, but that is getting off the point. You need to pay attention before throwing a childish strop. It was an illustration of how Fergie’s luck saves him from himself. It was Fergie who didn’t want Cole initially, it was Fergie who kept trying to get rid of him, always for downgrades.

SAF has made some awful signings but so has every other manager. His good points far far far outweigh his bad points

The trouble with coming out with such twee statements is some git like me will actually ask you to put them to the test. Seriously that position is totally untenable. If you feel like trying to justify it go ahead. This is well worn ground so I’ll leave it to you to make a case in the hope you might have a genuine angle rather than the same tired and inaccurate crap that usually gets spouted by the blind ‘it is United, ergo it is great’ brigade.

Regarding Heinze, while we didn't absolutely need to buy a left back, our options there would have been either Silvestre (who we all know is very prone to the costly mistake) and O'Shea. We had Phil, but surely you'd agree that he isn't the very best.

You see there I’m in total disagreement - imo Phil was one of finest left backs around before Fergie started to play him in midfield. Admittedly that is more an instance of damning the global derth of talent than praising Phil, but the point stands. Regardless this comes back to context once again. The real question isn’t whether United are stronger at left back with Phil or Heinze, it is whether United are a stronger team with Phil at left back and Carrick in midfield.

Regarding the Silvestre mistakes, I’d say they number less than Heinze. The difference is Silvestre’s are just more visible. Most fans seem to pretty much award ‘errors’ in the same many as baseball, and they are just as worthless at judging ability in football. To continue the analogy Silvestre is the outfielder with excellent range who keeps nearly getting balls he has no right to reach, but he gets close enough that he earns himself an error in the official stats. Heinze on the other hand is so bad he gets nowhere near the ball in the first place, thus he doesn’t get the error. As Heinze’s problems are mainly positional it does slip under the radar a fair bit. Seriously though if you go back and study the video of chances given up by his teams I would be amazed if anyone wouldn’t come away with significant concerns about him at the very least.


To be fair, sometimes you can't quite put all the blame on managers for trying to get proven top class players - if they get someone who is unproven and he flops, the manager gets slagged. Top class purchases are very often the "safer" method.

That depends entirely on the definition of big name. Frankly Fergie seems to buy players and regard them as big names when he clearly has no idea about their game, or their true standing. Take his efforts to promote Celio Silva and Ricardo as serious international players as case in point, a laughable assertion in both cases.

I'm not old enough to remember Irwin playing as a right-back very often - would he have been better than Gary?

The point is moot as far as the argument put above was concerned. Gaz was an unknown commodity at the time, having joined us just a week or two before Parker. However in answer to your question, undoubtedly. You know how strong Irwin was defensively, being quietly uber-efficient, damn near faultless. He was a fair bit ahead of Gazza in that respect, but with the ball he was on another planet. His crossing can’t be underestimated either, he may not have been right up there with Sharpe or Beckham but he was significantly ahead of everyone else. But for his physical defects - the slight lack of height and pace - you couldn’t wish for a better right back. I’d really love to know what Leeds were thinking when they released him... being fair to Bremner he came into a club who expected promotion so it would have taken guts to stand by a defence containing three kids in Irwin, Terry Phelan and Andy Linighan, but discarding the lot for a total fee of around £40k was just insanity. Now that is a six months transfer business that looks truly appalling with hindsight :)

[manutdc]

What did you make of Heinze's performance at the WC, SR? Aside from that one big mistake he made that should have had him sent off, that is. Silvestre didn't get a game, if I recall correctly.

That's true regarding big names, I do remember Fergie touting Ricardo as a top-level international keeper when he really was far from it. Perhaps a big name such as Veron - when we got him he was pretty much a fixture in Argentina's team, if I remember properly. He was also a fantastic player in Italy. Perhaps someone like that, for whom Fergie has gotten slated for signing. The problem was not so much his signing, but how Fergie played him, IMO.

How much did shifting Irwin to the left limit his effectiveness? Surely he can't have been affected that badly. Most of the skills he had should have been applicable on both sides, which is probably why he was such a legend at left back too. Out of curiosity, I've heard many say that Gary could well be the best crosser of the ball at the club right now... what do you think?

[KingSingh]

wow SR i've got more info from this post than the rest of my time on this forum combined.
On your point about fergie's style of play over the first half of the nineties. Sure he played some boring football but it wasn't like the rest of the premeirship was playing fast furious football either. In fact the englishgame is forever associated with a big man and lobbing balls up front hoping somethings happens. Also that period coincided with united's most successful period in decades. Would the club have won all those trophies with someone else at the helm?? Probably not


Another point about Phil neville being one of the best left backs around. Compared to Le saux, Harte and winterburn neville was never on their level. He gave nothing to the attack and had little pace and was exposed when other teams had a pacy right midfield. He had almost no assists and his tackling wasn't the best. He just wasn't a solid left back and before he moved into the midfield was the very definition of fringe player.

[SalfordRed]

What did you make of Heinze's performance at the WC, SR? Aside from that one big mistake he made that should have had him sent off, that is. Silvestre didn't get a game, if I recall correctly.
For the record Silvestre played the final group game against Togo (Abidal was suspended).

It was vintage Heinze on display imo. Everyone picked up on the mistake you quoted and the Mexico goal, but he got away with most of his real errors yet again because they are not the sort of things casual fans pick up on. However considering how little pressure Argentina’s defence had to deal with in the four competitive games they played you have to say Heinze won’t be a happy bunny making those two massive mistakes.

While not a mistake as such if you look at his movement on the Germany goal you see a good illustration of why he finds himself in no mans land so much. As the ball is about to be played into Klose he tries to anticipate a pull back and starts to move out the box. Rather than supporting his full back he is trying to close down a comparatively minor threat that he had no chance of reaching anyway. That is Heinze all over, he takes himself out of the game so much of the time.

How much did shifting Irwin to the left limit his effectiveness? Surely he can't have been affected that badly. Most of the skills he had should have been applicable on both sides, which is probably why he was such a legend at left back too.

It really did have a massive impact on him offensively. He was a great attacking full back, but he was very much an attacking full back rather than a winger. He couldn’t beat a man with the ball, rather he’d rely on overlapping runs to get himself in. That requires a rapid delivery, crossing on the run before the defence reorganises. You simply can’t do that and turn back onto your right foot. Although he did try to cross with his left he plummeted down to mediocrity, a typical hit and hope merchant. Moreover Irwin on the left was a much more cautious beast than Irwin on the right. I guess he was always conscious of his left swinger, and of course when you are chasing back as a left back it is the left leg you need for an effective tackle or block. As a left back he seemed much more determined to keep goalside of his man.


Out of curiosity, I've heard many say that Gary could well be the best crosser of the ball at the club right now... what do you think?

You could certainly make that case although it is more a damnation of our crossing than a sign of Gazza’s quality. He is very erratic himself. Ole is the best by some margin, but it is a bit hard to classify him as a first teamer right now. On the rare occasions Ronaldo is focused on the job rather than the next trick he is the best, but as that happens about one game in ten...

It is bloody hard to rank them these days as the cross is an endangered species around OT. Those of you who only get to see us from the sidelines or on the box should try and get hold of the video from behind a goal sometime. Last season in particular we were unbelievably narrow in attack. We went through long periods of play without any player in the opposition half wider than the penalty area. It really is no wonder we went through so many games without having a single shot on goal from open play bar the occasional long range dink.

On your point about fergie's style of play over the first half of the nineties. Sure he played some boring football but it wasn't like the rest of the premeirship was playing fast furious football either. In fact the englishgame is forever associated with a big man and lobbing balls up front hoping somethings happens.

I take issue with that. It is one of the modern myths that really gets my goat. Go back over the last quarter of a century and pick out the top flight English sides who actually deployed such a stratagem. Sure loads of sides used a big battering ram centre forward, but they used them to get on the end of crosses not to flick on long balls.

It just didn’t happen the way some people would have you believe. You only have to look at the sheer quantity of expansive midfield talent to start seeing how illogical it would have been to adopt styles totally bypassing these players. Take one of the sides traditionally given this label, Taylor’s Watford. We are talking about a team boasting Barnes and Jackett in midfield. Do you really think they got to the point of challenging for a championship without making extensive use of such talented ballplayers?


What the rest are doing is an irrelevance anyway. We are Manchester United, and that meant something once. Sexton got sacked producing better than the ***** Fergie put us through, and unlike Fergie he didn’t spend millions to drop us into relegation outsiders.

Also that period coincided with united's most successful period in decades. Would the club have won all those trophies with someone else at the helm?? Probably not

More importantly it coincided with our economic dominance. This isn’t a chicken and egg debate, the splits are quite clear. Back when the rest of the league was on a reasonably level playing field Fergie did squat for us... in fact he plunged us to back-to-back bottom half finishes - something we’d only done that twice post-war, when we got relegated and during post-Munich rebuilding - and tore the heart out of the club throughout the first quarter of his reign.

The money came first. Fergie only started to find success when we were in a league of one and no one could come close to competing with our resources. The fortunate combination of the Taylor Report, our flotation, and then the breakaway and subsequent media explosion had a lot more to do with our success than fergie. In fact it was only the combination of Fergie’s incompetence and Wenger’s brilliance that prevented our domestic game becoming totally stagnant.

Tellingly look at his record where he still has a more level playing field, namely Europe. He has a lamentable record at OT in European knockout football, winning just twelve such ties in the sixteen years since the ban ended. Notable scalps are few and far between. It is pretty much true to say we meet someone half decent in Europe and we get beat. We’ve underachieved massively in Europe and that just furthers the case of Fergie the flat-track bully. The fumblings he has made since Abramovich arrived have added even more weight.

I’ll ask the standard question. The timing is clear, and the surrounding evidence doesn’t help Fergie’s case, so on what grounds should we dismiss this as mere coincidence?


I’m not going to waste time getting into the whole Phil question. Suffice to say I totally disagree about the names you list, and couldn’t disagree more with your assessment of his skillset... in fact that description seems more apt to a certain other United left back I could mention :)

Phil did suffer from the prosaic nature of his game, much like Fletcher right now, and undoubtedly Carrick in the years ahead.

[KingSingh]

i am not old enough to have witnessed the birth of the myth but your reasoning that a team with a talented midfield wouldn't play long balls is unreasonable. I remember a italian team with the likes of del piero, di baggio, zanetti, totti in midfield that played long balls all the time in euro 2000.

Ok ferguson has won three european trophies in his tenure at the club, led the club to seven or eight successive champions league quarterfinals and was for a long time the sole flag bearer of british football in elite european competition. For all of wengers brilliance he only advanced past the quarter final stage of europe once in his eight odd years at arsenal and that was last season when they were no- hopers domestically.
Sure the finances played a big part in where united is now but fergie played a part in putting us at the top when the TV money came pouring in. He has had a profound impact on youth developement at old trafford and some of his signings have been crap but others have proved to be brilliant. I don't care if we only got eric cantona cuz he happened to be the last available option, the fact that we got him and he played the way he did for us make him a great signing in my opinion.
Its like if carrick becomes a star years from now would you say fergie was lucky because lyon didn't want to sell diarra and milan escaped punishment so gattuso couldn't leave?? Hindsight is agreat thing to have but fergies decisions at those crucial times in the last decade have made us the most successful club in premeirship history.

[SalfordRed]

Next you’ll be dismissing the artistry of a Hoddle or Muhren :) Italy never played the long ball game or anything close to it. Their football in the Benelux wasn’t good, but that is as far as you can go.

I think you need to dig out some video of John Beck sides to get an idea of what the long ball game looked like. There is a world of difference between that and a direct long passing game, and if you want to hold teams to account for the latter style you’ll have pretty much every side ever to choose from :)

Ok ferguson has won three european trophies in his tenure at the club

No one regards the Super Cup as a trophy at the best of times, and that is particularly true in our case. The outbreak of war in Yugoslavia meant we never played the away leg, and Red Star didn’t really turn up. The game is an exhibition at the best of times, but in 91 it was played like a pre-season friendly. There is a reason OT was filled with just 22k of us that night. Your point would have been much stronger if you just said two, thus denying me an easy way to undermine your argument.

Getting back to the real trophy in 91, it was a bit of a cakewalk to get to the final. Pesci Munkas were struggling in Hungary so we were able to beat them without leaving first gear (although the second leg must go down as the most turgid match in our European history... it was amazing how quickly the joys of returning to away travel in Europe wore off :) ). The second round saw us play the 92nd best team in English football. That mighty opposition put us through to the quarter final where at long last we faced an actual team of sorts in Montpellier. Not a top French team by any means, but they did at least have a smattering of decent players like Laurent Blanc and Carlos Valderrama. Crucially timed red cards tipped the balance against both the French (the only example of Hughes running for an Oscar?) and the Poles in the semi, and a hat trick was completed when Nando got sent off late in the final.

We got to Rotterdam having played no one of note, and even the final saw Barca shorn of two pivotal attacking pieces through suspension of playmaker Amor and injury to Hristo Stoitchkov. On top of that Zubizarreta (their keeper) was also out. Despite this they were very comfortable in the rather staid game through the first hour, rapidly recovered from the shock of our two quick goals, and none of us could have complained if Blackmore failed to make that last minute goal line clearance to earn them a deserved equaliser.


91 epitomised Fergie’s good luck. It also accounted for five knockout wins... in the fifteen seasons since we’ve clocked up just seven more to go with twelve defeats. Do you seriously want to maintain that is punching anything like our weight?

led the club to seven or eight successive champions league quarterfinals

Or to be more precise fell at the first knockout stage each year. It was that run that continued when the competition proper was brought forward a round in 03/04. In his sixteen campaigns Fergie has been eliminated at the first knockout stage on eight occasions, and failed to even get that far on two occasions. Of the six campaigns where he got further two were in the CWC, always recognised as a very weak competition.

Fergie’s wins in Europe are something of an aberration, both have more than a whiff of good luck about them (lets face it, we were outplayed in all three knockout rounds in 99) and outside those two campaigns we’ve done nothing whatsoever. If you are still doing the math you will note we’ve won just four ties in all the other years combined - Athanaikos, Honved, Porto and Deportivo. Those two facts combined provide a compelling case.

The most pious Fergiephile will have to concede that Fergie is an European failure anyway. At the time Ferguson himself made a big issue out of how young the 99 team was and what a future it should have, saying anyone can win one cup, the real test is to go on and create a dynasty. We’ve won just one tie since 99. We’ve not even come close.

For all of wengers brilliance he only advanced past the quarter final stage of europe once in his eight odd years at arsenal

Which is rather missing the point that that is punching Arsenal’s weight. Wenger has no business matching Fergie given the vast gulf in resources.

Wenger’s record compares very favourably to Fergie’s. In just eight campaigns Wenger has reached two finals - just like Fergie in sixteen. He has won eight knockout ties - one more than Fergie has won in the fifteen campaigns since 91 - and that despite Wenger being exclusively in tougher competitions. In the ECL since Wenger’s arrival both clubs have recorded four wins, and have advanced beyond the first knockout stage twice a piece.

Sure the finances played a big part in where united is now but fergie played a part in putting us at the top when the TV money came pouring in.

No, he didn’t. That was pure luck. Until the rest of the league were crippled by Taylor we were flirting with relegation. Our position had nothing to do with on field activity at all. We just had the huge good fortune of having already been in the midst of financing work on OT when terracing was outlawed.

He has had a profound impact on youth developement at old trafford

On that we can agree... of course that is assuming you mean a profound negative impact. This is the biggest Fergie myth that really ****es me off. The odious little man actually has the nerve to claim our system was a wreck when he arrived and still suggests it hadn’t produced since Sir Matt. That is total and utter ********. Hughes and Whiteside alone rather explode that claim... bar Scholes we’ve not had anything remotely close to that pair since Fergie’s much heralded ‘rebuilding’ of our youth system.

Fergie has trashed our youth production line and replaced it with an expensive battery farm. We now spend many times more (and that is allowing for the vast inflation within the game) and don’t get anymore saleable footballers from the process. Even worse we don’t get anymore players able to do a job for our first team, and genuine international class products are now less common.

We don’t develop kids at all anymore. We now take ten times as many kids and just throw them in and let Darwinism take its course. We have so many players that the real talents are not identified and don’t get the sort of intensive coaching they require if they are to make the leap from average EPL quality to truly world class.

I don't care if we only got eric cantona cuz he happened to be the last available option, the fact that we got him and he played the way he did for us make him a great signing in my opinion.

Of course it does, but those factors clearly mean you can’t give the manager any credit. It was luck not design.

Its like if carrick becomes a star years from now would you say fergie was lucky because lyon didn't want to sell diarra and milan escaped punishment so gattuso couldn't leave?? Hindsight is agreat thing to have but fergies decisions at those crucial times in the last decade have made us the most successful club in premeirship history.

What decisions? It has been because he has had his decisions taken away that we had domestic success. As far as hindsight is concerned it should be noted that these are for the most part contemporary opinions. As stated above I’m adamant you should only judge a manager on data he could reasonably have had at the time.

Your Carrick point is far off the mark. The above quoted cases are not instances where we’ve just been linked in a vague way with players. They’ve been instances where deals have been completed in whole or in part. In all cases formal transfer procedures have been instigated.

You are missing the point that Fergie’s luck has in fact run out. This has been a constant theme over the past few years; Fergie has - for the most part - been getting his targets, building the team he wants. That is how we’ve ended up with this shapeless mess of a squad, that lacks anything resembling balance or a coherent strategy.

Carrick as a player is a great signing, but boy is it a lousy bit of business at this price. This is in fact an example of Fergie’s luck deserting him. We were interested in him, but West Ham were adamant they were not selling despite the failure to bounce back to the EPL. It all goes back to the Heinze comment in my OP: “In fact signing the totally unnecessary Heinze not only came damn close to costing us Rooney, it caused us to miss out on Carrick, which looks like it may cost us two years and an extra £10million.” Turns out I was a bit optimistic on the fee and missing out on Carrick two summers ago has in fact cost us £16million.

[manutdc]

Well, I'll re-watch some games to see about Heinze. Do you think we're a better team with him in it or out of it, considering our other options right now? I have to admit that I think Silvestre does have some of the best long diagonal balls that I have ever seen, but is he really better for our team than Heinze?

And what's your evaluation of Evra, who is supposed to be cover for Heinze, or the left back position in general?

Hm, for some reason I always though that Irwin was relatively comfortable with his left foot, but then again most of what I remember of him was him being on the left. I suppose it does make it much harder to play on the left if you're right footed. O'Shea is right footed, though - how come he played so well at left back in his breakout season, 02/03 I think it was?

I'm still not sure how good of a crosser Ronaldo is still - time and time again I see his crosses either underhit or overhit. It's less common to see him find our player in a good attacking position than it is to see him slow down an attacking opportunity because he's sent a cross too far. That or he plays with the ball too much.

I've still failed to understand why we never pick up on bargain buys, much like Tottenham have done. Robinson from Leeds for £2m, Carrick from West Ham for £2.5m, for example. I think Carrick will probably turn out to be a great signing if he can mature into an all-round midfielder.

[MUFC]

Here's an interesting article about Fergie :
http://football.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1827876,00.html

[man.utd.singh]

If we had wenger we could have had the likes of stepanov, cygan or even francis jeffers, not to mention NO english youth whatsoever.



English youth? what about wilcot

[MUFC]

Do you mean Walcott? Well he never came through the Arsenal youth academy.

[chewbm]

I've still failed to understand why we never pick up on bargain buys, much like Tottenham have done. Robinson from Leeds for £2m, Carrick from West Ham for £2.5m, for example. I think Carrick will probably turn out to be a great signing if he can mature into an all-round midfielder.

I second this statement.. I was simply appalled at how Tottenham managed to pull such bargains in the transfer market.. :mad: What is SAF doing when Spurs picked up these bargains while we picked up mediocre players like Kleberson, Djemba-Djemba, Veron, etc for SO MUCH more..

I do agree that SAF do have some bargain buys, for eg, Peter Schmeichel, Dennis Irwin, Eric Cantona.. We are just merely paying the market rate for the likes of RvN, CR, Heinz, Keane etc...

[manutdc]

Seems like Fergie has lost the eye for a bargain buy - all the buys you listed as bargains are years and years ago.. lately we haven't seen one, really.

[RoyKeaneIsMagic]

spot on with that man, well done

[SalfordRed]

Do you think we're a better team with him in it or out of it, considering our other options right now? I have to admit that I think Silvestre does have some of the best long diagonal balls that I have ever seen, but is he really better for our team than Heinze?

The value of Silvestre’s pace can’t be overstated, his recovery ability is second to none. In a generally sluggish team he becomes a godsend. Then you have his value in the air, another significant weakness in our squad. List the defenders we have who are not lacking in one of these areas.

Silvestre is very much the modern Pallister, dropping a clanger a month, but he offers us more than he costs us. With a decent, well balanced defensive unit he’d be a liability, but now we are virtually back where we were in 01-02 and a Silvestre becomes vital.


And what's your evaluation of Evra

Evra is a good player, and his skill set does provide a lot of what we need at left back. Aerial issues were always going to be an issue, but in general he is a good fit, especially in a Gaz Vidic Brown/Silvestre unit. The huge question mark is will he ever settle and adapt. It is a huge change from a backwater like Monaco to the OT pressure cooker and thus far he has been in full on startled rabbit mode. Plenty of players take a good six months to a year before settling, but normally there is a steady curve. Evra didn’t seem to make any improvement whatsoever. Hopefully with a preseason under his belt and a settled home - I’m presuming he has now got out the hotel, can anyone confirm? - he’ll start to settle down a bit.

or the left back position in general?

It is a bloody mess to be frank, which is half the reason we’ve got so many options :) Stick ‘em all in a blender and you’ll get a rounded player, but individually they’ve all got significant flaws.

Up until a few weeks ago I was all for giving Spector a run. Not an ideal option, but he had shown enough at Charlton to get a shot, especially given he was reasonable in the air and had a bit of pace, two things we are short of as a team. Now if I had to choose just one man to run with all year it would be Silvestre.

O'Shea is right footed, though - how come he played so well at left back in his breakout season, 02/03 I think it was?

It is psychological imo. The big difference with Irwin was he was well set in his ways. He’d been a regular first team right back from the age of 18 right the way through to the start of his second season at OT. We are talking eight seasons glued to that right flank. O’Shea on the other hand had started out at United as a central midfielder and had spent six years bouncing around pretty much every position on the park. Even that season he played games at right back, centre half and midfield.

Adaptability in football is a misnomer; it is the absence of habit. Take Scholes as another case in point. He was a great out and out forward before Keane’s injury saw him become a full time midfielder. Five years later he was a little boy lost when Fergie asked him to return to the forward role.

I'm still not sure how good of a crosser Ronaldo is still

He is great on the very rare occasions he actually gets his head up and tries to pick out a man. He is lousy with the hit and hope style having no instinct for what constitutes a dangerous area. The real problem is all too often when he has the time and space to pick someone out he’ll use it to perform another bit of cabaret instead.