Can we do it this season?

[MiddRed]

The omens are looking good so far! We have won our first 2 games convincingly and the team is looking very strong. Im not sure about the champions league but i really fancy us to retain the Premiership crown. Fingers crossed and a couple more signings (Hargreaves and Tevez) and we got an outstanding chance. Look at Chelsea losing 2-1 to M`Boro 2nite????????:cool:

[MUFC]

It's looking really good, but the worrying fact is that except for defence, we really lack any cover for injuries to our midfielders and strikers.

If we can get another midfield player before the transfer window closes, we should look a lot better.

However, our performance tonight in the second half was really fluid. And yes, it was indeed great to see Chelski lose to Boro :D

[EveN]

I think that we have a very good chance to be first this season...
And by the way-I AM SO HAPPY that Chelsea lost to Middlesbrough!!!!!

[ABBOUDY]

this issue is not so clear , cus both of Fulham & Charlton are not so powerful indeed. well we ned to win against rivals to have a great confidence as to gain the crown mates.

[Vinnie Jones]

I would feel much more confident if it was teams that aren't going to threaten relegation. I do like how the team is playing, it is a different team without Ruud. I like how everyone seems to be picking up their game. Did you notice that there was not one offside in the last match. Ronaldo is a much improved player this year. He looks to be buying into the system.

[SalfordRed]

Based on our opening games we’ve got no chance of silverware this year. Hopefully it is just early season rustiness, but we’ve been lamentable at the back. We’ve been in heaps of trouble every time the ball gets off the ground around our box, something I’m sure has been noted by our future opponents. Moreover I’ve not been convinced by our attacking play either. We’ve done great when given loads of time and space, but we’ve always been fine in those conditions. As soon as teams have tightened up on us we’ve looked short of ideas, and have immediately reverted to last seasons uber-narrow pattern, allowing the opposition to jam the centre. We’ve got to improve a hell of a lot if we are going to survive some real matches.

[KingSingh]

liverpool and chelsea lost points away to sheffield and boro so i consider the victories at the valley and vicarage road real matches for sure. I agree with you about our defense looking suspect but hopefully after the hairdryer treatment after the watford game those mistakes will be rooted out.

if we get victories at home against spurs and arsenal in our upcoming games then we will have a strecth of relatively easy games where we can hopefully build a lead over our other rivals.

[manutdc]

I don't know if we have the squad depth required to bring us through a title-winning season either. Our defence has indeed been somewhat suspect, which better sides will take advantage of.

[SalfordRed]

I agree with you about our defense looking suspect but hopefully after the hairdryer treatment after the watford game those mistakes will be rooted out.

Why do you think they’ll be rooted out now when they’ve been present for years? For example the problem with Rio not using his head isn’t exactly new and has cost us numerous goals since his arrival, but four years later he still tends to wave a leg rather than risk his pretty face. I don’t think anything is going to change on the back of a win at Watford!

Trouble is long existing and well known problems have just been magnified by the loss of Keane who was superb in the air, plus Ruud’s inches and for the last couple of games Gazza. It is a chronic problem that isn’t going to be solved by shouting. These are all well established players who are largely the finished product, it is just a symptom of bad squad building.

if we get victories at home against spurs and arsenal in our upcoming games then we will have a strecth of relatively easy games where we can hopefully build a lead over our other rivals.

When are you expecting that? After Arsenal we’ve got to handle the law of the ex at Reading and then Newcastle come to OT, but those two games are as good as it gets. October is a bitch with the three plastic derbies on the bounce. No way would I term that relatively easy for us.

liverpool and chelsea lost points away to sheffield and boro so i consider the victories at the valley and vicarage road real matches for sure.

I’d actually be happier if we swapped for Chelsea at this point. They may have dropped points, but their problems have come from early season rustiness and problems with existing in-house solutions. We on the other hand may be 100% but we’ve been displaying the same old problems that have crippled our challenge in recent years, with no solution in sight. Our start is very reminiscent of last season, getting the points in the bag, but the performances flag up a rocky near future.

Liverpool on the other hand are in a similar boat to us, but even they are showing a new problem rather than a chronic one from previous seasons.

[KingSingh]

You would rather swap for a team whose manager will probably leave the club before the end of the season and who now has problems with some players, the owner and kenyon?

Last season we didn't get points in the bag, if i remember correctly we only got 7 from a possible 15 last time around.

Defense is an issue but not one without a solution, with o'shea slipping back into defense it gives us more aerial prowess and with gazza coming back that puts it up anotherlevel.

As for the stretch of games reading, newcastle and the others are much better than us facing chelsea or liverpool

[SalfordRed]

Last season we didn't get points in the bag, if i remember correctly we only got 7 from a possible 15 last time around.


We got nine out of nine coming out the blocks just like this season (Everton, Villa and Newcastle for the record). Once eyes started turning to the ECL the points dried up and we won just two in the next seven.

Defense is an issue but not one without a solution, with o'shea slipping back into defense it gives us more aerial prowess and with gazza coming back that puts it up anotherlevel.

So you think players who’ve been part of a long term problem will magically solve it this season once they appear? That is pushing beyond the bounds of optimism into delusional territory :) I hope you are right and a magic wand is waved, but I’m a prosaic soul when it comes to football.

O’Shea is hardly a solution given how poor he is in the air. He has inches which is a boon in a shortish side, but he isn’t strong in the air at all.

As for the stretch of games reading, newcastle and the others are much better than us facing chelsea or liverpool

Minor point, but Liverpool are one of the plastic derbies. We’ve got them in our nightmare October.

When it comes to fixtures before the ECL games you want big name opposition given our attitude problems. Playing small local opposition is the nightmare scenario (take Blackburn last year as case in point). For Wigan and Bolton it is huge derby fixture. For our players (not to mention Fergie who tends to stupidly rest people) it is a humdrum fixture before ECL games. Historically we throw away points in these fixtures time and again. It is another reason to doubt our chances against Spurs... count the eyes on Celtic and Arsenal. So yes, for these fixtures I'd much rather be playing Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool rather than Spurs, Wigan and Bolton.

[KingSingh]

My bad about forgetting about the liverpool fixture.

About our problems with rosses into the area, we have van der sar who is great at collecting crosses and brown, vidic and sylvestre are all good in the air while o'shea and gazza are decent. the only players who are weak against rosses are rio and gabby and both more than make up for it with their play on the field.

Blackburn have always been a bogey side for us and are a tough game for any side at ewood park while the reebok has laimed some notable salps over the years as well. Also after wigans form last year i will be very suprised to see anyone take them lightly

[SalfordRed]

About our problems with rosses into the area, we have van der sar who is great at collecting crosses and brown, vidic and sylvestre are all good in the air while o'shea and gazza are decent. the only players who are weak against rosses are rio and gabby and both more than make up for it with their play on the field.

I can’t agree with this assessment. Brown is mediocre at best in this respect. O’Shea is poor having never picked up the positional sense required since his original conversion from midfield. Rio is near non-existent. Silvestre and Heinze are both decent headers of a ball but are rarely in position to effectively demonstrate it. Vidic is great by our standards but not much above average in reality. Gazza does a superb job, but it is primarily passive. Gaz is all about denying his man a clean header rather than clearing danger. He is a fantastic centre half with a stronger unit around him, but in this squad he is barely good enough in the air for right back.

None of them bar Evra are hugely weak individually, but as a unit it is horrendous. It is more an absence of strength than mass weakness, but that is pure semantics and doesn't help when the balls are flying in.

Also after wigans form last year i will be very suprised to see anyone take them lightly

You may think that, but we are talking about our arrogant and lazy players. You could say exactly the same about many of our pre-European slip ups in recent years where it was clear half the squad had more than one eye on the mid-week fixture.

For the record Wigan’s form last year was lousy. There is this strange perception amongst virtually everyone that they had a strong season, but over the final six months of the year they were on solid relegation form. Only two teams had a worse record over the last 27 matches. Wigan’s entire campaign was built around that nine game run against struggling opposition when they still had the momentum of promotion behind them. Once they lost the momentum they’ve been on relegation pace. That safe mid-table position was a very false one.

[KingSingh]

The differene between this season and the past ones is I think ferguson is more focused on the premiership than the champions league. Every year since the treble he has tried to chop and hange the team in order to gain more success in europe and in a way that has backfired with united only winning 2 more league titles in the last 6 years. Therefore the problems with players taking their mind off the games at hand won't happen i think.

About the defenders even acording to your analysis if we play gazza, brown, vidic and gabby we would have a pretty decent backline to ope with crosses but we would sacrifice the pace of rio and evra/sylvestre and the problem of pacey strikers would magnify. I feel we have the best squad of players in defense in the entire league with the likes of bardsley, pique and evans in the wings waiting for their chance

[SalfordRed]

The differene between this season and the past ones is I think ferguson is more focused on the premiership than the champions league. Therefore the problems with players taking their mind off the games at hand won't happen i think.

About the defenders even acording to your analysis if we play gazza, brown, vidic and gabby we would have a pretty decent backline to ope with crosses but we would sacrifice the pace of rio and evra/sylvestre and the problem of pacey strikers would magnify. I feel we have the best squad of players in defense in the entire league with the likes of bardsley, pique and evans in the wings waiting for their chance

While I’d actually dispute it would make any difference I’ll instead question whether Ferguson will go in with that mindset. A second failure to stay in Europe post Yule and no silverware this season would leave his position under immense pressure. The last thing the prideful Fergie wants is to get sacked again, so I can’t see him putting the league above the ECL in the autumn at least.

About the defenders even acording to your analysis if we play gazza, brown, vidic and gabby we would have a pretty decent backline to ope with crosses but we would sacrifice the pace of rio and evra/sylvestre and the problem of pacey strikers would magnify.

That unit looks bloody vulnerable against a potent set piece team. You’ve got one or two guys you can really rely upon to get the job done, plus Ronaldo if he gets his head around the job in the weeks ahead (not having a go at the lad, this is virgin territory for him). Unless we’ve got Smith in the side as well there are few opponents who won’t be able to find a mismatch against that defence.

As I’ve said before imo potentially our best backline is Gazza, Brown, Vidic and Silvestre. It is still rather short of the standard required at the highest level, but it has the least obvious holes. However we both know that Rio with his £5million annual contract is pretty much guaranteed a place in the starting XI.

I feel we have the best squad of players in defense in the entire league with the likes of bardsley, pique and evans in the wings waiting for their chance

In reply to that I’ll just copy my post from a month ago from the who is our best defender thread: During the month of the year he is fully fit Wes Brown by a country mile. In general Gaz is our best, and after that you are talking about who is the least flawed. It is indicative of how bad modern defending is that that statement holds true despite our having one of the stronger unites in the EPL. Oh for a Martin Buchan or Kevin Moran.
Judging our ability by comparing it with the domestic dross is an exercise in self delusion. Being the best is rather meaningless if the bar is set incredibly low. Moreover I for one couldn’t give a rats arse what others are doing. We’ve got problems that have the potential to hurt us. That is the be all and end all for me.


Pique has got a long long way to go before he'll cut it for us. He is great on the ball, but when it comes to actual defending I'd rather recall Albiston from the coaching staff and stick him back on the park. Pique has an attention span that makes Rio look the epitome of concentration.

Bardsley isn't an EPL class player anymore imo. Maybe he will recover, but ever since he blew his knee out he has been a pale shadow of his old self. He is a good option for the emergency reserve, but I'd not want him playing in genuinely competitive matches.

[unitedred]

We can do it, but whether we can maintain this form till January so that we can sort out the Hargreaves deal I am not sure of.

2 or 3 injuries and we'd be farked.

I have attached a poll guys.

[KingSingh]

The domestic dross you speak of are exactly the defenses we need to breach in order to win the league. As since we didn't manage to do that the past three years while chelsea have been setting defensive records galore, i wouldn't say the bar is incredibly low. Comparing against sides that are competing against us gives us a great pointer as to where we stand.

Pique has improved greatly in the summer after leading the spain under 19s or 21s to victory in the euro where he scored a ouple of goals and was solid at the back.

Bardsley looked good in pre season and if he continues like that i see no reason why he can't become a good squad player.

Evans meanwhile is class and if given thechance will certainly become great

[SalfordRed]

You are talking like it was before the ECL destroyed the last remnant of domestic competition. These teams aren’t our rivals. Dear lord, if they ever became such a thing in the current climate we’d be in masses of trouble. To put it in perspective in a couple of weeks time we’ll have generated as much match day revenue as many of the EPL clubs will generate all season. These teams are only in the same league as us in the literal sense. In reality they are nothing more than tomato cans in boxing parlance.

It is not enough for us just to be merely better than these sides. In truth we’ve got to be damn near faultless. We’ve got to totally overpower them week in, week out. You are operating in the mindset of a competitive league, not a totally polarised competition such as the EPL has become. Today if you want to be confident of winning the title you are talking about dropping 20-25 points maximum. Once you’ve allowed for the points you’ll inevitably drop against the other members of the big four and the couple of games when the Lady is against you there really isn’t any scope left for slipping up against these teams. You basically need to be 100%.

You need to change mindset. In the last two seasons the second place team has been way off the pace, yet has had the same record as our last championship team. Our treble sides tally hasn’t been enough to win a title since, and last year would have been fourth. Three straight years has seen the champion drop 24 points or less, a figure we have managed on just one occasion. It is a different ball game now, you need to be in another class entirely, not better.

[KingSingh]

Out of all the clubs in the ECL, in my honest unbiased opinion i think only chelsea, milan and barcelona have a better group of defenders than us and most of the defenders at the later two are getting on in age. Thats not so bad is it?

[SalfordRed]

Not bad at all assuming one accepts your pre-supposition. Clearly I don’t :)

[KingSingh]

I know you don't like comparing but i would like to know which other teams in europe you think have a better group of defenders than us. If we are in the top five in europe in my opinion things can't be as dour as you make it seem

[SalfordRed]

I reckon you are still thinking in terms of individuals rather than teams. If you asked me to rank the individuals in the ECL this year and then rank the teams based on the average score then yes, we’d be right up there. Unfortunately it doesn’t work like that. A team of five star defenders doesn’t necessarily equal a five star defence.

Attacking effectiveness is defined by what you can do, but defending effectiveness is defined by your weaknesses. The scales are balanced firmly in the attackers favour. If you can have the perfect attack even a perfect defence can’t stop it. Defending well is a percentages game, one of damage limitation.

Think of defending in the same terms as counter-terrorism. Failure is inevitable. Your purpose is to restrict the number of failures to a minimum, raise the bar required for you opponent to beat you as high as possible, and make the cost in terms of opposition resources as high as possible. The first two speak for themselves, while resources are minutes, energy and structural integrity. The more men your opponent has to commit to break you down the weaker his own defences become. The point is you can’t afford to grant an easy in. Our squad balance is so poor that an attack always has at least one door left wide open, and the knowledge of the easy openings we give up allows weaker opponents to pack their own defence and just hope to take advantage of the present we inevitably offer.


This is why I regard our current unit considerably weaker than you. Spurs were impotent in attack on Saturday, but they still found themselves gifted with several huge chances, which thankfully for us they wasted. We got away with it - as we did against Watford - but over the course of a season you can’t get lucky every match. In an environment where you get no second chances such weakness will kill you, and nowadays that definition no longer applies to just cup football. The margin of error in the EPL is now so small it does as much damage to our league hopes.

[markf]

Yeah I believe we can, John o'shea is a legend and if the rumours are true regarding the return of Dennis Law and Paul Parker, then Yeah Boys we can win the league and Champions League.
God Bless Eric Nevland