Should Fergie Follow Wenger's Example?

[-zuco-]

Paul Scholes and Ryan giggs are two of our longest serving players;
they have been figureheads of the team throughout our most successful
period ever. I have always defended them when in the past people have
slated their performances on the pitch, but today I am doubting my own
judgement and wondering if Sir Alex should be taking a leaf out of
Arsene Wenger's book.

Yes, you read that right!

The reason is that Wenger has a knack of offloading star players at just
the right time. Patrick Vieira left for Juventus, allowing Cesc Fabregas
and Mathieu Flamini to flourish in the center of midfield. Thierry Henry
was sold to Barcelona and Emmanuel Adebayor soon established himself
as a world class striker.

Ferguson on the other hand, seems reluctant to keep the names of
Giggs, Scholes and Neville away from the teamsheet, regardless
of how they play.

This season we have witnessed the emergence of two of footballs'
brightest talents stake a claim for a starting place in our first XI.
Anderson has been a revelation in midfield, while Nani has displayed
the sort of trickery we used to see from Giggs on a regular basis.
They were both instrumental in the destruction of Arsenal at Old
Trafford last week, but when we played against Lyon last night,
Giggs was given the left wing slot and Scholes was named alongside
Anderson as part of a five man midfield.
It showed against City that Anderson and Scholes don’t play well
together so I’m struggling to understand Fergie’s formation and
lineup. We had lots of possession in the first half, but didn’t really
create any chances; barring the one on one Rooney should have
scored. Then in the second half when we went 1-0 down through
a Benzema strike, Nani and Tevez were brought on and we switched
to 4-4-2. The effect was instant, we were suddenly creating
opportunities down both wings, through the middle and actually
looked like we would score.

It seems obvious to me that Anderson is at his best when deployed
as an attacking midfielder by himself. The presence of a second
attacking midfielder seems to throw him off his game and basically
get in his way. Doubling the attacking midfielders doesn’t guarantee
doubling the attacking influence. Anderson is capable of bossing the
position all by himself, as shown by his commanding performances
against the likes of Steven Gerrard and Cesc Fabregas.

Nani has 12 assists this season. That statistic shows why he should
be ahead of Giggs in the pecking order. Giggs has been bombing up
and down the left wing for 15 years and it’s beginning to show.
He wants Sir Bobby Charlton’s appearance record and nobody would
begrudge him the chance to do that, but not to the detriment of the
team, no player is bigger than Manchester United and if we are not
playing well with Giggs on the pitch, Fergie should drop him.
He should retire gracefully at the end of the season.

Nani and Anderson were expected to be brought into the team
gradually, but injuries and suspensions meant they were thrown
in at the deep end much quicker than was planned. The good
thing is they didn’t sink. Instead they have both proved to be two
of our best performers this season. They are influencing our games
massively and Fergie should reward these performances with places
in the starting lineup.

[burnzy1987]

i think SAF is trying to implement anderson and nani into the starting 11 in the next season or two so giggs n scholes departure isn't as harsh...but i think they definately do "swim" instead of sinking.

Giggs constently frustrates me sometimes, but every now and then we get some magic.if i was SAF i would be asking myself weather those moments of magic (like a that move from lyon last night, giggs to scholes shot) are worth starting the experienced players or to bring in the young 'uns quiker who have that definate spark we also saw last nite in lyon.

i would definately side with the quicker in terms of giggs

[eoininho]

no way lad!!!!!!!! i think wenger's policy of not offering over 30's players more than 1 year contracts is v disrespectful

Scholesy aint past it guys he's only just back from injury and he's still one of the best in his position in the world he's definitely got this season and next left without a doubt

giggsy is gettin on a bit and has been a bit poor this year but he had a great season last year and can still offer something!

I think wenger lets these guys go too easy, at that age it is difficult to establish yourself in a new team and in most cases with his players a new league! If vieria and henry and pires had stayed theie experience would have been invaluable to arsenal!

Scholesy won us the league last year in my opinion and his experience will be invaluable as we go on in europe (remember last yr 1st leg against milan)!!!!

[reddwarf]

Fergie hasn't been afraid to offload big names in the past when he believes they are past their best e.g. Hughes & Ince.

I think he believes Giggs and Scholes still have something to offer the squad. Don't forget that Scholes was injured for 3 months earlier this season - it will take him time to regain his best form.

Although Scholes may fulfil a long-held ambition to play for Oldham in the twilight of his career, I think Giggs will carry on playing at the club until he retires. Giggs has already put plans in place to get his initial coaching badge so I wouldn't be surprised to see him stay at the club in a coaching role, like Solskjaer has.

[eoininho]

Fergie hasn't been afraid to offload big names in the past when he believes they are past their best e.g. Hughes & Ince.

Good point!!

Fergie know's best I never question him, if Giggs and Scholes weren't good enough they'd be gone, he's cleared out many favourites before!

Selling a player because you assume he is too old or not offering them a longer deal means you could miss out on the likes of Teddy Sherringham showing excellent form in his twilight years!

[Keano!]

I think Fergie has a special bond with those two and Neville. He brought them into the team and he wants to see them remain at the club. Scholsey can still hit a 10 p piece from 50 yards and Giggsy weaves like magic. The only problem is age. Fitness levels drop, but because they have kept themselves in such great condition, they are still capable of playing at the highest level.

As for following Wenger? Ehh.......try to follow the footsteps of someone who wins the league the odd five or six years, doesn't play English blood, doesn't own up to poor performances........don't think so!

[-zuco-]

As for following Wenger? Ehh.......try to follow the footsteps of someone who wins the league the odd five or six years, doesn't play English blood, doesn't own up to poor performances........don't think so!

I meant follow Wenger in offloading players that are past it or are holding the team back, I didn't mean he should wear the same clothes and eat the same cereal.

[Red Devil]

Its hard to part with someone like these two, but they cannot go on forever, and as time goes by, they get slower and slower. Paul should go to Oldham for a couple of years and Ryan to wherever!

[aggrounited]

This is absolute rubbish dat Giggsy & scholes have very little to offer us ...keep ur experience crap in ur pocket There's still a vintage Giggs left & we have seen those Flashes against Rovers,Villa....Scholes strike against Pompey is da only thing i can say but stilll comparing Fergie to Wenger ********* cannot keep players coz they want to win UCL they are +30 & nonsense our so callled ageing players were with us from 04 to 07 where we won couple of trophies....they have given so much to united & now after one odd game here u go.....Fergie is doin da rite thin give young turks time it is after 4yrs Ronaldo is a Sensation

Edited to remove swear words!!

-zuco-

[-zuco-]

Ronaldo may have taken four years, but Anderson and nani don't need four years as they are already great players who have adapted to the pace of the Premiership with ease. Nani is creating goals everytime he plays and Anderson keeps the whole midfield going. Put players in the team on merit, not by name, that's the point I'm getting at.

[donthered]

I hate to say it but i yhink Giggs has lost his legs. He is unable to get past players. And that was his game. I think he will stay so he can teach the young ones. Who is better to do that.

[Red Devil]

This is absolute rubbish dat Giggsy & scholes have very little to offer us ...keep ur experience crap in ur pocket There's still a vintage Giggs left & we have seen those Flashes against Rovers,Villa....Scholes strike against Pompey is da only thing i can say but stilll comparing Fergie to Wenger ********* cannot keep players coz they want to win UCL they are +30 & nonsense our so callled ageing players were with us from 04 to 07 where we won couple of trophies....they have given so much to united & now after one odd game here u go.....Fergie is doin da rite thin give young turks time it is after 4yrs Ronaldo is a Sensation

Edited to remove swear words!!

-zuco-
Now maybe I should edit this into legible ENGLISH!!! Jeez, I hate sms!!! Lazy, aggrounited, lazy! And your user name? Are you in favour of hooliganism?

[Keano's fan]

Normally I wouldnt reply to such threads as I believe most of them are just a knee jerk reaction to a performance or two. But zuco hasnt said a couple of words and hid, so Im gonna state my personal opinion in detail.

We held on to Robbo for too long. We carried Keane during the latter part of his career here. Scholes and Giggs on the other hand arent past it. Both of them were selected in the 6 man short list for the PFA player of the season just a few months ago. You dont just lose it in one summer do you ? Giggs has lost a bit of pace and Scholesy's magic is still hiding some where, but thats nothing to do with their abilities, its just their current form hasnt been as good as you expect from them two.

For all the talk of Giggs being rubbish this season, he has 12 assists and two goals to his name, hardly rubbish. To be honest, he has been poor for the majority of the season but he still put on a few good perfomances and a couple of great ones. He is not at his best but he is still our best option on the left. I understand all the talk about Nani now especially after the arsenal game, but the boy has been inconsistent all season. He has more assists to his name than Giggs I believe, and his crossing and pace are great assets, but he is still too inconsistent. And Park isnt good enough to be a regular here. So IMO Giggs is still our best option until Nani starts to show some consistencey and really settles in.

Scholes has been out for 3 months, players take time after coming back from injuries and he is 34 so its harder for him. But there is no doubt in my mind that no one in europe is better at dictating the play than him, he is still the best at what he does. Anderson and Carrick has been really good and they deserve to start IMO, but dont count Scholes out just yet. People are looking into the age thing a tad too much. Someone said if theyre good enough theyre old enough. Well if theyre good enough theyre young enough as well, and thats certainly the case with Scholes.

People are blaming the static ineffective performances by the team on them where the same arguement can be used for them against team selection and system. Ronaldo and the 'present' Giggs dont track back which leaves the CM pair with too much to do. Now for someone like Hargreaves or Anderson with pace and energy, it wont be a problem covering every where. But for Someone like Scholes who lacks pace, he'll be exposed and he will look bad even though its not even his fault as he is doing the wingers defensive job for them. I have no doubt in my mind that if we to play a midfield of Giggs-Scholes-Hargreaves/Fletcher-Nani/Park , you'll see how Giggs and Scholes would blossom as Hargreaves, Fletcher, Park and Nani can cover alot of ground which leaves Scholes and Giggs the freedom to do what they do best which is killing off teams with defense cutting passes and intelligent forward runs.

Its the balance of the team that is making the pair look bad at the moment. We are too big of a club to be carrying players even if they were living legends. But I honestly believe that Scholes and Giggs are still two of the best players in the league and still have alot to offer. Its only good for the club that we are talking about the likes of Nani and Anderson that are showing signs of being potential greats. What an exciting time to be a United fan.

[-zuco-]

I know what you're saying Keano and to a certain extent i can agree with you.

Giggs has 9 assists this season (not 12), Nani has 12, the stats don't lie and
they say he creates more goals. I also think he has played less games than
Giggs but i may be wrong. In my opinion Nani is MORE deserving of a starting
place than Giggs.

Anderson is in great form at the moment and should be left in the team, it
doesn't matter who else can also play in that position. If you keep dragging
him out of the team when he is playing well, it will affect his confidence and
also affect the rhythm of the team.

[Keano's fan]

I know what you're saying Keano and to a certain extent i can agree with you.

Giggs has 9 assists this season (not 12), Nani has 12, the stats don't lie and
they say he creates more goals. I also think he has played less games than
Giggs but i may be wrong. In my opinion Nani is MORE deserving of a starting
place than Giggs.

Anderson is in great form at the moment and should be left in the team, it
doesn't matter who else can also play in that position. If you keep dragging
him out of the team when he is playing well, it will affect his confidence and
also affect the rhythm of the team.
Let me get this straight. You say that stats dont lie and thats why you think Nani is more deserving than Giggs. Then you say that Anderson should start when the stats swing towards Scholes, Carrick and Fletcher. Make up your mind.

[Jazz 16]

Have to agree with everything that Keano's Fan has said^^^^
Giggs and Scholes DO still have a lot to offer and they will prove it.
Everyone is banging on about Nani and I myself am getting excited
by his sudden burst of form. But he has been quite poor this season
and very inconsistent. Im not knocking him but being realistic.
I mean look at Ronaldo when he first arrived........

Nani has many assists but a lot are from corners or when the other
team is knackered. Stats do lie in some cases.
Some people are quick to knock Scholes and Giggs and they
should be ashamed of themselves. Treating these legends like that is
appaling. Anderson and Nani are the future but G&S will be around for
year or more. And their experience will be crucial in the run in.
As someone said it is a great time to be a United fan but when things
arent going well we cant have these knee jerk reactions and say so and so
is not worthy of their place.
People have slated Fergie, Saha, Fletch, Nani, Giggs, Neville,
Carrick, OShea, Hargo, Ronnie and Rooney..... already this season.
These guys are all trying their best and deserve our support.
They may not play amazing every week but when 22 players
are on the pitch some wont play as well as others.
Lets just get behind the team and support every player.

[SHERLZ6899]

On the 3 or 4 occasions united have started with Giggs & Scholes this year. they have looked poor... My question is simple is it sentiment ???

Now I'm not moaning about the situation they are class, but United have looked a massive threat without them...

Again Anderson had a great game against Lyon & Nani effectively created the winner !!!

What do you think....

[Justice]

Not sure what to say.

They do bring experience and calmness into the team which is invaluable but...

They are getting very old very quick and pace and agility is something they seriously lack, something United seem to excel in. Also, neither of them are particularly strong so they cant fall back on that when they slow down.

At this moment in time I do believe that Anderson and Nani are playing better than Scholes and Giggs, but there will be times when we need the two oldies.

[Jazz 16]

I dont think its sentiment. They deserve their place, and I dont think Anderson played 'great' against Lyon. We are also discussing this topic in another thread so Ill move it....

[HUW_92]

i think that SAF still plays them because he admires them and has much respect because of the world class performances they have given time in and time out through their careers, but i think that SAF needs to realise not to remain in the past, its sad but their coming to the end of their careers and are beginning to dissolve away little by little every perfomance. sorry to say this SAF needs to make nani and anderson the first choice instead of scholes and giggs for the sake of the team.

[Keano!]

I meant follow Wenger in offloading players that are past it or are holding the team back, I didn't mean he should wear the same clothes and eat the same cereal.

Sorry zucs, missed your point there! lol. But, I didn't Wenger keep Henry a year
too long? Fergie offloaded, Carroll, Howard, Teddy, Cole, Yorke.....so I think
Fergies doing the right thing now. He's bringing fresh blood into the squad
whith the 'aul pros there to guide them and become something special.
If Giggsy and Scholsey were to leave in a week or two......there'd be a lot
of sad faces in that dressing room.

[Red Devil]

Sorry zucs, missed your point there! lol. But, I didn't Wenger keep Henry a year
too long? Fergie offloaded, Carroll, Howard, Teddy, Cole, Yorke.....so I think
Fergies doing the right thing now. He's bringing fresh blood into the squad
whith the 'aul pros there to guide them and become something special.
If Giggsy and Scholsey were to leave in a week or two......there'd be a lot
of sad faces in that dressing room.Can I have a glass of what your're on ;) ??

[SHERLZ6899]

i THINK THERE IS PLENTY TO ARGUE HERE !! This season Giggs has under performed, he can't go past defenders like he did 5 years ago which shows, hense Fegie finding new positions for him... Scholes just doesn't seem to fit in with the way united are playing at the moment, lets be honest he is not a holding midfielder (Scrapper)

Getting rid as WENGER is stupid, having Scholes & giggs around will bring on the younger players, but EVERY DOG HAS IT'S DAY !!!!

[versa]

Ronaldo may have taken four years, but Anderson and nani don't need four years as they are already great players who have adapted to the pace of the Premiership with ease. Nani is creating goals everytime he plays and Anderson keeps the whole midfield going. Put players in the team on merit, not by name, that's the point I'm getting at.

Quote of the week by far. Well done, Mod... er, let me take a closer look again.... Supermod!?! :eek:... ;)

But seriously, your pragmatism and having no qualms to say it as you SEE it is most refreshing; not many here do, by the way. Kudos.:)

I remember Keano was going downhill in his last one, two seasons with us too and both his performances and impact on players were obviously fast diminishing. And if he had not chosen to leave on mutual consent, guess Fergie would still be playing him game in game out as a captain rightfully should.... And I seriously doubt we would have won the League last season. And of course we will always remember him with respect and gratitude. Know what I mean?

[conor myles]

I think we saw the begining of the end of giggsy and scholesy on wednesday night the way he took the two of them off in a massive match like that

Next season Nani and Anderson will be regular starters

[evra90]

experience is important in my opinion, the three f them had shown that they are still capable of playing in the EPL. since they are capable, why should we offload them and waste money bringing in some rotation players to fill their place? AC Milan has many experienced players but they are a very stable team in the European Champions League who is capable of beating any teams, like they beat us in sewmi final last year.

[-zuco-]

Quote of the week by far. Well done, Mod... er, let me take a closer look again.... Supermod!?! :eek:... ;)

But seriously, your pragmatism and having no qualms to say it as you SEE it is most refreshing; not many here do, by the way. Kudos.:)


Thanks :o

[Q8MANU]

I think fergie Is for tactics & wenger is for creating good players