[Jazz 16]

[quote=RedForceRising]
Rodrigo Possebon, Jonny Evans, Danny Wellbeck and Danny Simpson all have more talent than Darren Fletcher and John O'Shea.

[quote]

Which means they are more likely to leave. Pique and Rossi are 2 examples.
Depends if they are content being a squad player. You cant deny a promising
youngster a chance to play first team football. Sometimes things dont work out,
thats life. As much as Id love them to be in the squad, we need to be realistic.
They wont really get a proper chance for years. Evans wont get ahead
of Rio or Vida for years. Same with all the others.....Possebon might get a
chance but it wont be for a good while yet, and by then it will/might be too late.

[versa]

[quote=Jazz 16][quote=RedForceRising]
Rodrigo Possebon, Jonny Evans, Danny Wellbeck and Danny Simpson all have more talent than Darren Fletcher and John O'Shea.

Which means they are more likely to leave. Pique and Rossi are 2 examples.
Depends if they are content being a squad player. You cant deny a promising
youngster a chance to play first team football. Sometimes things dont work out,
thats life. As much as Id love them to be in the squad, we need to be realistic.
They wont really get a proper chance for years. Evans wont get ahead
of Rio or Vida for years. Same with all the others.....Possebon might get a
chance but it wont be for a good while yet, and by then it will/might be too late.

By hook or by crook, we HAVE TO break this vicious cycle or we should not even bother to discuss excitedly about any young promising player anymore since it will then always be the same end result; season after season.

Except for Pique last season, I can't seriously say any other young player was even considered as a squad member! And that could well be the trouble: if they are not even deemed good enough to be a squad member, what hope or aspiration can they have towards one day being a first team regular and taking over the reins?

Pique was a special case because he still left albeit back to his former club where he came from. What about Evans etc? I believe they will more likely stay to fight for their now-more-realistic places if they indeed have that self-confidence about their own abilities and the necessary desire to want to realise their fullest potential. Why?

No doubt at all it is true that "Evans won't get ahead of Rio or Vida for years." But what about 'promoting' him to be a squad player at least to understudy and to actually be ready to take over in actual games when there are injuries. Let him compete with other squad players for the available slot instead of an automatic exclusion in favour of the current squad players is my point. I do think he and other youngsters are not necessarily more inferior than the current squad players.

Of course faith does play a major part in such circumstance. But then again, wasn't Evra unheard of by most United fans when United signed him? Didn't he flop in his first game in the derby game against Citeh? Didn't Fergie play him soon enough after by faith? Didn't he do the unthinkable by eventually displacing The Traitor, Heinz, who was more experienced, established and acclaimed, and actually our Player of the Year prior to that?

I know Simpson flopped too against Everton and was soon shipped out for loan again. I am not too sure if that was right or why the same faith was not being placed on him. And there went our second young player who could have been potential squad player besides Pique.

Sadly, we have none currently and that does not auger well for our youth development if we are indeed serious at all about bringing them through and through like Giggs, Neville and Scholes.

I agree with some that we now have another bunch of youngsters, eager and promising, to break through together again like the Fergie's Fledgings after more than a decade. Trouble now is, will they ever get the break or rather, the fair break as indicated in bold above. And not to forget, a regular squad player can displace a first team regular and make the slot his own for years to come eg Gary taking over from Parker and never looked back!

Or "by then it will/might be too late" yet again.

[Jazz 16]

^^^ well you hit the nail on the head and it's quite depressing admittedly,
but IF these kids arent good enough they leave its as simple as that.
In this day and age, its easier to spend a fortune on a foreign import
a la Ronaldo, Anderson or Nani. We are 'fortunate' enough to support a club
who can just go out and do that.

It's sad for the young lads who get rejected but if we are winning trophies
it's all ok isnt it? I suppose so, would be my answer.

Evans has a chance to be THE back up. He is good enough and the lads will
need a rest now and again (+suspensions, injuries etc.)
But will Fergie just let Silvestre, OShea or Brown step in there when the time
comes? Who knows? You will have to ask him that ;-)

I can see why it gets you down Versa, but with 30/40 decent players to choose from
(squad, reserves, some youths), its obvious that some wont get the chance.
Thats the way the cookie crumbles.

[RedForceRising]

[quote=versa][quote=Jazz 16]

Originally Posted by RedForceRising

Rodrigo Possebon, Jonny Evans, Danny Wellbeck and Danny Simpson all have more talent than Darren Fletcher and John O'Shea.



I know Simpson flopped too against Everton and was soon shipped out for loan again. I am not too sure if that was right or why the same faith was not being placed on him. And there went our second young player who could have been potential squad player besides Pique.

Sadly, we have none currently and that does not auger well for our youth development if we are indeed serious at all about bringing them through and through like Giggs, Neville and Scholes.

I agree with some that we now have another bunch of youngsters, eager and promising, to break through together again like the Fergie's Fledgings after more than a decade. Trouble now is, will they ever get the break or rather, the fair break as indicated in bold above. And not to forget, a regular squad player can displace a first team regular and make the slot his own for years to come eg Gary taking over from Parker and never looked back!

Or "by then it will/might be too late" yet again.

Man..the problem with fergie is he has his favourites. Evra flopped in his very first game, but he cost 5.5m so fergie HAD to give him a chance. OIf course we're all glad he did.

So he needs to give the youngsters that chance too.

Why did Fletcher and O'Shea get that many chances.

pique was a very, very promising talent. Not great YET, but the signs looked good.

To my mind he had a better footballing brain then Evans, but Evans has other qualities, BUT if you don't give them chances they're not going to improve. Simple as.

Against the likes of Stoke, Fulham, West Brom, Wigan and in the carling cup, you should giuve the youngsters a run out.

fergie made a mistake of fielding a complete youth team against Coventry. that's not how they will learn.

You got to let them play alongside the experience first team players.

Fergie is a top manager, but to my mind he only give young players the chance when they;re already at a very high level (scholes, Becks, Nevilles, Butt0, but some players need a bit more exposure to top flight footie, before they can blossom.

check out the way Wenger has been doing it.

I'm telling you right now, Possebon would become a class player at Arsenal and I would really be disappointed if he spends two seasons on loan before we sell him.

[Jazz 16]

Originally Posted by RedForceRising

Against the likes of Stoke, Fulham, West Brom, Wigan and in the carling cup, you should give the youngsters a run out.

That's where the problem could lie. You cant take ANY game for granted in this
league. Just look at last season at the teams that beat us: Bolton, City and
West Ham We only beat Derby 1-0 with a late goal for example.
We need to give EVERY game full attention and make sure we have no slip
ups. You cant just take Rio and Vida out and put in youngsters even against
the so called 'lesser teams'.
carling cup is fine to do this, but not in the league.

[Richie]

if you take it easy in any game at this level, unfortunately, it could cost you the league. and i have no doubt we could probably beat teams like wigan with younger players in the team, but its still a risk as it weakens the team. and as we won the league by 2 points last season, if we had lost 1 signle game that we won, chelsea would have won the league

so its tough for people like sir alex because he will be eager to give his youngsters a chance but won' want to end up dwelling on risks that didn't pay off

[TheManc]

[quote=RedForceRising][quote=versa]

Originally Posted by Jazz 16

pique was a very, very promising talent. Not great YET, but the signs looked good.

To my mind he had a better footballing brain then Evans, but Evans has other qualities, BUT if you don't give them chances they're not going to improve. Simple as.

Against the likes of Stoke, Fulham, West Brom, Wigan and in the carling cup, you should giuve the youngsters a run out.

fergie made a mistake of fielding a complete youth team against Coventry. that's not how they will learn.

You got to let them play alongside the experience first team players.

Fergie is a top manager, but to my mind he only give young players the chance when they;re already at a very high level (scholes, Becks, Nevilles, Butt0, but some players need a bit more exposure to top flight footie, before they can blossom.

check out the way Wenger has been doing it.

I'm telling you right now, Possebon would become a class player at Arsenal and I would really be disappointed if he spends two seasons on loan before we sell him.

I think a big difference between nowadays and say 15 years ago when the 'class of 92' was born is that Chelsea, with all there money, raised the bar to an incredibly high level. We can't just put 2 or 3 youngsters in league games because points are much more important these days, you can only afford 'x' amount of slip ups so the risk is far greater. If the chelsea of 3 years ago played in '93 then they would walk through the league.

I agree that Pique will probably become better than Evans if he isn't already, but the difference is that I don't think Pique really suits the Premiership. Its so quick that you need to be fairly mobile and quick on your feet as its very end-to-end, wheras the La Liga is much more about positional play and reading of the game - which was arguably Pique's main strength.

I agree aswell that if Rodrigo was at Arsenal he would get games and play well, but Arsenal have been doing that for a few years and what have they won? Remember that the pressure at United and Chelsea to win trophies is far greater than that at Arsenal. Remember when we went a couple of years without the league and the press were calling for Fergie to be sacked? That would never happen at Arsenal so they are allowed to take more time with there young players where we need instant results. This is why we send more players out on loan.

I think that Fletcher and O'shea should move on (like a few have said), they are/were very good squad players but they are at an age, like P.Neville and Butt, where they need games. IMO squad players should tend to be young-ish players, like Rodrigo, Evans, Wellbeck etc.

If we're half way through the season and we're up against Tottenham and Rio, Vidic and Evra were out who would fill the 3 places? Brown is the obvious choice, but then there's Evans, Silvestre and O'shea and you can bet your bottom dollar that it woun't be Evans who is picked, which hinders a good opportunity for him to gain experience.

[versa]

Originally Posted by Jazz 16

^^^ well you hit the nail on the head and it's quite depressing admittedly,
but IF these kids arent good enough they leave its as simple as that.
In this day and age, its easier to spend a fortune on a foreign import
a la Ronaldo, Anderson or Nani. We are 'fortunate' enough to support a club
who can just go out and do that.

It's sad for the young lads who get rejected but if we are winning trophies
it's all ok isnt it? I suppose so, would be my answer.

Evans has a chance to be THE back up. He is good enough and the lads will
need a rest now and again (+suspensions, injuries etc.)
But will Fergie just let Silvestre, OShea or Brown step in there when the time
comes? Who knows? You will have to ask him that ;-)

I can see why it gets you down Versa, but with 30/40 decent players to choose from
(squad, reserves, some youths), its obvious that some wont get the chance.
Thats the way the cookie crumbles.

I see a good, constructive debate brewing in this thread, Intoxicating. Although slightly off topic as it is more meant for defensive aspects of our team while we are looking inward to our younger players and are casting the net wider across all positions. Lol. Guess it should do no harm in any case.

I would differ on the kids leaving because they are not good enough. Most are, I suppose, but we also know some select few like Rossi, Pique, Simpson, Evans etc are good enough for the future but already some left because of the lack of opportunities given.

Rossi may have left because he wanted first team football. However, I can't help but suspect that it was more because he was not even a squad player to begin with, shining brightly as a star only in the reserves instead. If only he was 'promoted' to be a squad player and challenging with the first team regulars consistently for the next match's slot, things may just turn out totally different or his perception of his chances for breaking through may not have been so bleak for him to leave. Perhaps. But that is the kind of opportunites I am talking about, as highlighted in bold in my previous post before this. And given our serious problem in our strikers' department last season (in some games, we only have one striker due to injuries/suspensions!), who knows he may just have grabbed the chance and never looked back. But alas we will never know by then.

Spending on imported talents is good and won us things in this ultra competitive league. Having 30/40 decent players to choose from is also a happy problem. But we should never overlook or undervalue bringing through our younger players. Why?

Bringing through our younger players whom we groomed from, well, a young age, gives us more years of services and the understated loyalty. Young players also give us the unpredictability, the raw energy and thrust, the enthusiasm and desire to want to improve and excel etc. But don't get me wrong. I am not saying we should throw them blindly by faith into senior games immediately. I am talking about giving these select few the chance to train together and challenge the current squad players for the next game. For example, if O' Shea was slotted as a reserve defensive backup, I am sure Pique or Evans is good enough to pip him for the slot. Or if Fletcher was slotted as a reserve midfield cover, I am sure Possebon can make him sweat after some time in the same season.

One bone of contention is this. If O Shea etc can't displace the regulars after these years, why don't let the select few youngsters challenge them for the squad? If they can't displace them, so be it. However, like what Gary did to Parker, nobody knows what may entail further.

But then again, after we have talked till the cows come home, you are right that Fergie still holds the last say and he can still choose to put in Silvestre, O Shea etc and can still choose to keep these youngsters in the reserves or farmed them out on loan and eventually sold them for good.

[quote=RedForceRising][quote=versa]

Originally Posted by Jazz 16

Man..the problem with fergie is he has his favourites. Evra flopped in his very first game, but he cost 5.5m so fergie HAD to give him a chance. OIf course we're all glad he did.

I suspect too.

So he needs to give the youngsters that chance too.

Such precious but elusive commodity that can change a player's future in an instance.

Why did Fletcher and O'Shea get that many chances.

pique was a very, very promising talent. Not great YET, but the signs looked good.

To my mind he had a better footballing brain then Evans, but Evans has other qualities, BUT if you don't give them chances they're not going to improve. Simple as.

Against the likes of Stoke, Fulham, West Brom, Wigan and in the carling cup, you should giuve the youngsters a run out.

fergie made a mistake of fielding a complete youth team against Coventry. that's not how they will learn.

You got to let them play alongside the experience first team players.

I would raise my legs too to agree.

Fergie is a top manager, but to my mind he only give young players the chance when they;re already at a very high level (scholes, Becks, Nevilles, Butt0, but some players need a bit more exposure to top flight footie, before they can blossom.

check out the way Wenger has been doing it.

I'm telling you right now, Possebon would become a class player at Arsenal and I would really be disappointed if he spends two seasons on loan before we sell him.

Let's put it this way. Wenger is more willing and thus more likely to unearth raw diamonds from his own backyard than Fergie does. Some may reason that he won nothing for a long while now. But I would like to gently remind that his squad is the youngest, yet was threatening to run away with the league title at one stage until Fabregas got injured and they immediately dropped some points over the next few games and that was it, and to the neutrals, they do play better football than us. With another long, tough season under their belt for their youngsters, we should look over our shoulders not just for Chelsea.

I believe you about Possebon and I share your fear.

Are we all off topic here or is it really ok since they are related?

[RedForceRising]

Originally Posted by Jazz 16

That's where the problem could lie. You cant take ANY game for granted in this
league. Just look at last season at the teams that beat us: Bolton, City and
West Ham We only beat Derby 1-0 with a late goal for example.
We need to give EVERY game full attention and make sure we have no slip
ups. You cant just take Rio and Vida out and put in youngsters even against
the so called 'lesser teams'.
carling cup is fine to do this, but not in the league.

This is a valid point and in fact it was a bad judgement from Pique that led to Anelka;s goal when we played at The Reebok, BUT what Fergie should have done is continued to give him a chance.

I accept the point that you can;t take it easy against any team in the league, but then again, when we were missing Vidic through injury, Fergie played Pique at CB and it turned out fine didn't it?

There are no easy games in the league but you gotta give some youngsters a chance.

It's interesting you mention the game agains Derby, because you know what? Ronaldo was one of the few who was really trying that day and he only managed to score on his fifth attempt, after a pass from Rooney - NOW THAT"S EXACTLY THE TYPOE OF GAME THAT COULD HAVE USED SOME YOUNG BLOOD TO FRESHEN THINGS UP.

Seriously, you unleash a youngster who wants to prove himself in a game like that and it could work in your favour.

It's those kind of games where the established first team players might take their foot of the throttle, so let a youngster run his lungs out.

The games against West Ham and Bolton were painful. We didn't turn up and that is all the more reason why Fergie should let some young kid give his best than to have a regular put it less than 100% PLUS there's less pressure on the kid to perform.

[quote=TheManc][quote=RedForceRising]

Originally Posted by versa

I think a big difference between nowadays and say 15 years ago when the 'class of 92' was born is that Chelsea, with all there money, raised the bar to an incredibly high level. We can't just put 2 or 3 youngsters in league games because points are much more important these days, you can only afford 'x' amount of slip ups so the risk is far greater. If the chelsea of 3 years ago played in '93 then they would walk through the league.

I agree that Pique will probably become better than Evans if he isn't already, but the difference is that I don't think Pique really suits the Premiership. Its so quick that you need to be fairly mobile and quick on your feet as its very end-to-end, wheras the La Liga is much more about positional play and reading of the game - which was arguably Pique's main strength.

I agree aswell that if Rodrigo was at Arsenal he would get games and play well, but Arsenal have been doing that for a few years and what have they won? Remember that the pressure at United and Chelsea to win trophies is far greater than that at Arsenal. Remember when we went a couple of years without the league and the press were calling for Fergie to be sacked? That would never happen at Arsenal so they are allowed to take more time with there young players where we need instant results. This is why we send more players out on loan.

I think that Fletcher and O'shea should move on (like a few have said), they are/were very good squad players but they are at an age, like P.Neville and Butt, where they need games. IMO squad players should tend to be young-ish players, like Rodrigo, Evans, Wellbeck etc.

If we're half way through the season and we're up against Tottenham and Rio, Vidic and Evra were out who would fill the 3 places? Brown is the obvious choice, but then there's Evans, Silvestre and O'shea and you can bet your bottom dollar that it woun't be Evans who is picked, which hinders a good opportunity for him to gain experience.

- I'm not saying field a weakened side, just bring in one or two young lads to let them cut their teeth. Surely if there was a team, who could cope with one or two regulars missing it would Manchester United!

- Having seen both Pique and Evans, I think they both could be top prem defenders, but yes Pique did seem a bit burly and short of pace at times. He'll probably look good next to the likes of Puyol and Milito

- sadly you;re right. Says a lot about our fans doesn't it? BUT at the same time, Wenger made wholesale changes to the team. He constructed it completely out of youngsters and then stregthened with Rosicky, Hleb, Gallas, Lehmann ...

I'm not talking wholesale changes, I merely would like to see the likes of possebon, Campbell and Simpson get more than a token 1 game per season.

- I couldn;t agree more. I love Sheasy and he is a versatile squad player, but both Flether and he need to go. I've never been a fan of Flethcher. In fact, I really do not rate him at all. He has improved, but in all honesty only looks sightly better than the likes of Darron Gibson and Rodrigo Possebon. Would he be in the squad if he were from the continent instead of from Scotland?! - I highly doubt it.

The two of them should move on by the end of this coming season, for their own good and the good of the club, cos they are taking the places of some very deserving youngster, who will be ready and physically stronger by next August

- You;re right again and it's not condusive to nurturing young talent. In the scenario you mentioned, Evans should get the chance to play ahead of O'Shea. I hope it happens. We haven;t had a good batch of youngsters for years, but we do now and fergie owes it to them, the fans, the academ and staff to give them every chance to improve and prove themselves.

Campbell, Possebon, Wellbeck, Simpson, Masheda, Evans> Greening and Chadwick

[no-wukkas]

[quote=TheManc][quote=RedForceRising]

Originally Posted by versa

I agree aswell that if Rodrigo was at Arsenal he would get games and play well, but Arsenal have been doing that for a few years and what have they won? Remember that the pressure at United and Chelsea to win trophies is far greater than that at Arsenal.

Isn't that precisely the point. Arsenal fans would far rather be in our position, facing immense pressure but winning things. I love the way they play - or rather, I would if they weren't the Gunners - but we can be just as breath-taking and win things. Whereas Chelsea win things but aren't breathtaking, and Liverpool don't deserve to be mentioned with the big 3. Yes, they were a great club once. So were Huddersfield.