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GOAT
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Unfortunately, he's right.

The only saving grace is that they're still both very young and with Vidic and Rio coming to the end of their respective careers here, they'll soon be first choice for us.
 

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Hansen and Dalglish were not playing regular international football because of 'injuries'. Exactly the same 'injuries' that Hansen found such a disgrace in Giggs.

He is a bitter Scottish Scouse, and there is nothing worse -unless your name is Dalgleish, in which case you win hands down, because you are miserable too.
 

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Smeghead Moderator
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Discussion Starter #263
Wow, big surprise for the friendlies against Chile and Germany. While many predicted a new face in the England squad, the names being touted were Luke Shaw, Ravel Morrison, and Saido Berahino. Instead Hodgson has called up Jay Rodriguez and recalled Jordan Henderson and Adam Lallana.

Goalkeepers

Fraser Forster, Joe Hart, John Ruddy.

Defenders

Leighton Baines, Gary Cahill, Ashley Cole, Kieran Gibbs, Phil Jagielka, Glen Johnson, Phil Jones, Chris Smalling, Kyle Walker.

Midfielders

Ross Barkley, Michael Carrick, Tom Cleverley, Steven Gerrard, Jordan Henderson, Adam Lallana, Frank Lampard, James Milner, Andros Townsend, Jack Wilshere.

Forwards

Jermain Defoe, Rickie Lambert, Jay Rodriguez, Wayne Rooney, Daniel Sturridge, Danny Welbeck.
 

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"You're Pretty Good"
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Henderson has played better then Cleverley or Delph this season.

Lallana's call up is long, long overdue. He's fucking class.
 

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Agonising transfer muppet
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Cleverley shouldn't even get into the England squad.Wilshere, Barkley, Ravel, Delph, Lallana are so much better and are performing better than him. Ravel should get his chance in the next batch of friendlies.
 

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Would've been too early for Berahino. I have a feeling he's going to stall his career by making a big move too early anyway. Hopefully he stays at WBA.
 

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Cleverley shouldn't even get into the England squad.Wilshere, Barkley, Ravel, Delph, Lallana are so much better and are performing better than him. Ravel should get his chance in the next batch of friendlies.
Delph is alright but doesn't strike me as something special.

Ravel is a a AM and too soon to call him up.

Lallana is more of a false winger/AM too. He isn't a central midfielder.


James Ward Prowse has a better case as CM than any of these 3.

Cleverley still deserves his place for the time being.
 

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Agonising transfer muppet
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Delph is alright but doesn't strike me as something special.

Ravel is a a AM and too soon to call him up.

Lallana is more of a false winger/AM too. He isn't a central midfielder.


James Ward Prowse has a better case as CM than any of these 3.

Cleverley still deserves his place for the time being.
Delph has done well this season, better than Cleverley. Cleverley always plays ahead of the 2 holding players whenever he plays for England, CM is not his natural position any more than it is for Lallana or Ravel who can both also play deeper. Ravel has played deeper more often than not for West Ham other than when they play him as a false 9. I like Ward Prowse too, he's a better CM than Cleverley already but as I said before, that's not the place they're all competing for.
 

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Delph has done well this season, better than Cleverley. Cleverley always plays ahead of the 2 holding players whenever he plays for England, CM is not his natural position any more than it is for Lallana or Ravel who can both also play deeper. Ravel has played deeper more often than not for West Ham other than when they play him as a false 9.
Delph has been good but nothing special and anyways even being very good for mid and lower end clubs and at the next level is a lot different, as Ashley Young, Stewart Downing will tell you.

Lallana has never really played CM much. He can play the 3 positions behind the striker in a 4-2-3-1.

And Ravel hasn't played deeper much either at the Prem level yet. He has been playing either wide cutting in or in behind the striker at West Ham.

And Cleverley doesn't play ahead of 2 holding midfielders for England. Only did it once IIRC away in Montenegro.

Now Rooney will play Behind Sturridge anyway, so you need 2 cm's that have experience of playing in a 2 man midfield.
 

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Agonising transfer muppet
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Delph has been good but nothing special and anyways even being very good for mid and lower end clubs and at the next level is a lot different, as Ashley Young, Stewart Downing will tell you.

Lallana has never really played CM much. He can play the 3 positions behind the striker in a 4-2-3-1.

And Ravel hasn't played deeper much either at the Prem level yet. He has been playing either wide cutting in or in behind the striker at West Ham.

And Cleverley doesn't play ahead of 2 holding midfielders for England. Only did it once IIRC away in Montenegro.

Now Rooney will play Behind Sturridge anyway, so you need 2 cm's that have experience of playing in a 2 man midfield.
o_O Every match he's played he's been the advanced of a midfield three. Be it with Gerrard and Wilshere or with Gerrard and Lampard when Wilshere was injured. When has he ever played as a central midfielder in a 2 for England? Ravel plays very deep in midfield for West Ham, sometimes he's actually the deepest in their midfield when they're on the ball and he's not the false 9. Wherever he sees most of the ball really. You dont have to be special to be better than Cleverley and Delph has been better.
 

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I don't remember Cleverley playing deep for England - he's played a few times as a number 10 and a had a couple of cameos on the wing. He played as a number 10 against Ukraine at home and miscued about 5 shots from inside the box. That inability to score really makes him rather ineffective in the role.
 

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o_O Every match he's played he's been the advanced of a midfield three. Be it with Gerrard and Wilshere or with Gerrard and Lampard when Wilshere was injured.
Wilshere and Lampard have played ahead of him mostly for England.

The Brazil game for example.

He's only played as the AM on a few occasions.

When has he ever played as a central midfielder in a 2 for England? Ravel plays very deep in midfield for West Ham, sometimes he's actually the deepest in their midfield when they're on the ball and he's not the false 9. Wherever he sees most of the ball really. You dont have to be special to be better than Cleverley and Delph has been better.
I think you are getting carried away and seeing what you want too with Morrison frankly. He has been playing advanced roles and though he drop deeps from time to time, it's nothing like playing a more deeper role.

Plus his performances haven't been consistent enough for a decent period yet to bring him in early to the England squad given his history.

And Delph is still pretty inconsistent, imo. Not sure he has been better then Cleverley even this season regularly. Besides Cleverley was starting CM for a team which ran away with the league last year and before that tied at the top. He may not be a elite or top talent, but he is still a quite good player. A few performances for a mid table club 1 season doesn't make you good enough to be selected ahead of him.
 

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Ruddy has been in poor form himself so has to be Forster.

Not sure he is much more less prone to a mistake than Hart either though.
 

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Agonising transfer muppet
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Wilshere and Lampard have played ahead of him mostly for England.

The Brazil game for example.

He's only played as the AM on a few occasions.



I think you are getting carried away and seeing what you want too with Morrison frankly. He has been playing advanced roles and though he drop deeps from time to time, it's nothing like playing a more deeper role.

Plus his performances haven't been consistent enough for a decent period yet to bring him in early to the England squad given his history.

And Delph is still pretty inconsistent, imo. Not sure he has been better then Cleverley even this season regularly. Besides Cleverley was starting CM for a team which ran away with the league last year and before that tied at the top. He may not be a elite or top talent, but he is still a quite good player. A few performances for a mid table club 1 season doesn't make you good enough to be selected ahead of him.
That's just not true. Whenever he plays, its in a midfield three and he's the furthest forward. In a Scholes like role of old, which Cleverley himself has said. Do you watch the England matches?

Ravel was the last man chasing back to defend in there last match, that should give you an idea of how deep he plays. I've watched most of West Hams matches this season and I'm telling you that when he doesn't play the false 9 role he's playing deeper in midfield.

Playing for united should have nothing to do with being preferred over a Southampton/Villa player. Cleverley was often subbed for Giggs, dropped to give Ando yet another chance and wasn't a consistent starter last season. I'd even say a fat Ando that has no chance of ever establishing himself here performed better than him when he played for the most part. Your reasoning is really really slanted and selective in these cases. Delph has always been a better talent than Cleverley, he's performing well while Cleverely is either not performing or not even playing any games.
 

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That's just not true. Whenever he plays, its in a midfield three and he's the furthest forward. In a Scholes like role of old, which Cleverley himself has said. Do you watch the England matches?
Cleverley has played as furthest forward of midfield 3 for England too. But he has played behind Lampard or Wilshere more when they have played instead of Carrick.

Can't find any site that does the position area graphics for England games or it would have been clear. I suggest you go back and see the games where Wilshere and Gerrard have played with him.

Ravel was the last man chasing back to defend in there last match, that should give you an idea of how deep he plays. I've watched most of West Hams matches this season and I'm telling you that when he doesn't play the false 9 role he's playing deeper in midfield.
Kagawa was the last man chasing against Sociedad on a few occasions particularly defending back from set pieces. Hardly means he was playing deepest or whatever.

West Ham mostly play a certain way and he has to do defensive work too, chasing back many times but he plays a pretty advanced role ahead of atleast 2 midfielders when attacking and that's where he is best at.

Also, when has he played as a false 9 ? West Ham have played mostly without a striker when they used that formation in 2 matches with 3/4 players all taking turns to go forward.

Playing for united should have nothing to do with being preferred over a Southampton/Villa player. Cleverley was often subbed for Giggs, dropped to give Ando yet another chance and wasn't a consistent starter last season. I'd even say a fat Ando that has no chance of ever establishing himself here performed better than him when he played for the most part. Your reasoning is really really slanted and selective in these cases. Delph has always been a better talent than Cleverley, he's performing well while Cleverely is either not performing or not even playing any games.
You are underrating Cleverley here a fair bit and across last season and He had a spell out towards the end of last season but he played more matches than any of those other players you are mentioning.
 

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Agonising transfer muppet
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Cleverley has played as furthest forward of midfield 3 for England too. But he has played behind Lampard or Wilshere more when they have played instead of Carrick.

Can't find any site that does the position area graphics for England games or it would have been clear. I suggest you go back and see the games where Wilshere and Gerrard have played with him.



Kagawa was the last man chasing against Sociedad on a few occasions particularly defending back from set pieces. Hardly means he was playing deepest or whatever.

West Ham mostly play a certain way and he has to do defensive work too, chasing back many times but he plays a pretty advanced role ahead of atleast 2 midfielders when attacking and that's where he is best at.

Also, when has he played as a false 9 ? West Ham have played mostly without a striker when they used that formation in 2 matches with 3/4 players all taking turns to go forward.



You are underrating Cleverley here a fair bit.
Cleverley plays ahead of Lampard when Lampard and Gerrard start with him. Like he said himself, in a Scholes like role. Wilshere only took Cleverleys place recently in the advanced role.

Again its not just me that sees this but Allardyce himself has said Ravel is used in a false 9 role at West Ham to make use of his finishing ability which they didn't realize was so good. midfielders interchange a lot there but when possible Ravel gets furthest forward when they use that formation on the break, hence the goal against Tottenham.

Tracking back to from a wide position to cover your left backs run like Kagawa does is a bit different than what Morrison does for West Ham.
 

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Cleverley plays ahead of Lampard when Lampard and Gerrard start with him. Like he said himself, in a Scholes like role. Wilshere only took Cleverleys place recently in the advanced role.
When was Scholes' role as a AM in 3 man midfield ? He barely played 1 season and some time as a AM ahead of 2 CM's at United.

For England he played more advanced for a time period, but he also played deeper in the same Box to box role too in a midfield 2.

And what exactly did Cleverley say that you are referring too ?

Not sure why he would play ahead of Lampard either and when he has.

Again its not just me that sees this but Allardyce himself has said Ravel is used in a false 9 role at West Ham to make use of his finishing ability which they didn't realize was so good. midfielders interchange a lot there but when possible Ravel gets furthest forward when they use that formation on the break, hence the goal against Tottenham.

Tracking back to from a wide position to cover your left backs run like Kagawa does is a bit different than what Morrison does for West Ham.
Where did Allardyce say that ? Not that it's relevant in this discussion. They had several players taking turns to fill in attack including Morrison against Tottenham for example.

And Kagawa was covering deepest from set pieces like Morrison does at times which is what i was referring too.
 
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