I'll try to answer some of those points for you from a match going red of over 40 yrs, living 15 minutes from OT.Fergaiste said:1) However as a devoted fan if I had the money or lived near Manchester I would not miss a game by hook or by crook.
2) as regards the glazers ok they have raised ticket prices however correct if I'm wrong the average price is still only Â£ 35 .
3) Imo Fergie is spot on and these FC united followers are just spoiled bitter turncoats who should know better.
No mate, can't claim that as mine.Jazz 16 said:This is getting sent around forums......
(Did you write this Sal? ;-)
.............. . .....
...... .. .....
I shall await the â€œif you don't like it you can go and watch Chelseaâ€ replyâ€¦. Sir Matt would be turning in his grave.
A normal working class fan being gradually priced out
Ok fair enough maybe my choice of words were a bit harsh and i kind of knew it would wind somebody up!!!I accept that the gLAZERS have pushed up the price to ridiculous levels which as you have out lined above are far more than i thought. When I said "if i had the money" I meant just to go over from Ireland every week but little did I realise!!! i by the way have been over on 7 occasions for matches ,none of which were against the big four, and thought the atmosphereSALFORD RED said:I'll try to answer some of those points for you from a match going red of over 40 yrs, living 15 minutes from OT.
1) Exactly...IF you had the money....which thousands upon thousands of everyday supporters do not. IF you were the average family man, with a wife & children to support, rent, council tax, gas, electric, phone, and numerous other bills to pay every week i doubt you could even afford a programme. Real supporters priced out in favour of someone who has never seen a United game in their lives who will spend all game taking photos, and go back to China, America or wherever and say " look at me i'm a great United supporter".
2) Average Â£35 ? Ok we'll take that figure. ( if you forget the fee to be a one United member or buy tickets through the exchange scheme or buy from touts, like to know how you get yours ? ). Myself + 2 sons = Â£105, thats without buying anything else. Â£105 for every home match ...Double that for aways. So in one month ( 2 homes, 2 aways)... minimum....Â£630. ( not counting any cup games whatsoever ). Yeah ok the average man can afford to pay that every month, i definatly KNOW NOT !! I know...lets buy season tickets....except then you are forced into the ACS, meaning you forced to buy tickets for EVERY home cup game, whether you want them or not, meaning if i am workin or ill and cannot make a certain match it still costs me Â£105 for ?? .....NOTHING . ( I can only go as i get 2/3 free tickets for just about every game..otherwise ? I would not have been for about 7/8 years ).
3) Obviously from the comfort of your armchair watching United on TV you never heard the thousands of voices singing " Die, Die Glazer" ( then it went to "die, die city" same hatred) or that you know nothing of the 60,000 who sang " We are not for sale " ( some actually meant it, others sang for fun ) before the Glazer takeover, or the thousands who have not renewed season tickets in the last two years, either in protest or because they could not afford to.
Turncoats definition ?..one who switches to an opposing side or party.
Not one single FCUM fan that i know (yes i know hundreds, yes, i go to FCUM matches ) has switched to an opposing side or party. There were many, many long standing Reds, with 20,30,40 and 50 years under their belts at Villa Park today who support/go/own FCUM.
I would suggest that you find out a little bit more about FCUM fans and what they are actually about instead of comming out with the same old drivel that has been passed around the last two and a half years and which any self respecting person can see is complete rubbish.
Anyway Villa Park was rocking today ( as it always is when United go there ), was probably the best away of the season for me personally. All the old songs coming out, fans in great voice, ( where were Villa ???? ) 90 minutes of non-stop singing and gooning, 7,000 UNITED voices in Villa Park put 75,000 at OT to shame.
Lets see what happens next game at OT....The same ?? I bloody hope so but i doubt it very very much...
SALFORD RED said:I appreciate the way you have seriously read what i wrote and understood 99% of the points i was trying to get across and i thank you for that. Other people may have responded the exact opposit but you have show by your reply that you are not someone whose eyes are blinkered and is willing to listen to both sides of the debate and make your own judgement. The same way as i am.
The Glazers have not simplified the process of buying a player in any way. If anything they have placed a lot of restrictions on United buying anyone. ( wonder why we never bought anyone in the transfere window, everyone agrees there's areas that need strengthening, maybe SAF was told " sorry, no money" )But did we not buy any great players before Glazer ? Did we not win the treble in 99 ? Did we never do anything before May 2005 ? Of course the answer is ...obviously we did and achieved greatness. Also i think you need to look a bit more closely at the way in which we bought Nani and Anderson, not even been paid for yet and wont be for another 2-3 years. Dont believe when you hear that United have paid out Â£70m+ this season on players. Fact is it's nothing like that.
The only difference now is.....Pre Glazer United debt ...ZERO. Glazer takeover...United debt now stands at something like Â£650m, with Â£65m (and rising) interest to be paid every year. Where is the money coming from to pay that bebt.....yes, from the fans pockets, being forced to pay at every turning.
Die die Glazer ? If you knew of the real hatred of the Glazers by United fans and the people of Manchester you'd be very supprised. Dont know if it was shown but at Villa Park there was a giant banner unfurled reading...LOVE UNITED. HATE GLAZER. Whever they are in Manchester they are greeted with protests, covered in tomato sauce, abused, cars stoned, cannot sleep quietly in their hotels and have to have police protection every step they take. Coming from Ireland i would guess you'd understand and know of how deep the hatred runs and how people really feel. L.U.H.G membership probably stands at something like 100,000 reds worldwide ( dont quote me on that figure ).
Chelski and Arsewipes prices ? I honestly have no idea ( can find out for you if you wish) as i have no interest whatsoever in how other cubs are run or priced. But i can tel you that Arsewipe fans are about 12 months away from having a FC Arsewipes, and the Bindippers fans are already talking about going that route as well.
Have a look at just how many fan owned clubs there are in England, you'll be supprised mate, 2 that you'll know AFC Wimbledon, AFC Telford, abroad there is hundreds including Lok Leipzig and probably the biggest is ...Barcelona.
Only thing you said wrong is....FCUM fans have deserted the club ( United )...NO they haven't, they still love United, watch every game possible on TV ( like 50m+ worldwide), still go to aways, still stand shoulder to shoulder with fellow Reds singing their hearts out for United. Only difference being....they refuse to go to OT and pay one penny out of their pockets to pay of the Glazers debts and pay for them ( and others)to live millionaires lifestyles, while the man in the street suffers. So 2,000+ said " we've had enough of being taken for mugs", put their money together, got some players and a manager and created a football team, where each member is as equal as the next person and somewhere we can take our families at 3pm on a saturday, watch a game of football, STAND, sing, go where you want in the ground, be with your mates, pay Â£11.50 for myself and two kids and have a million times better day than you can at OT paying Â£105.
look up FC United on wikipedia mate, will tell you lots more than i can.
And the next time you are in Manchester for a United game, i'll treat you to a FCUM match. Let you talk to the fans/members/owners/supporters, you'll be made very welcome and you can judge for yourself then if FCUM supporters are..traitors/turncoats/deserters/judas/scum/not real reds/glory hunters( strange one that, lol ).
Always glad to "try" to answer anything you ask fella, and it's great to have some decent craic and discussions on here. No one is ever right and no-one is ever wrong, everybody has their own opinions and i really enjoy listening to others points of view. I may not agree with someones opinion but i will defend your right to have that opinion.
PS..Firm believer in Martin Luthar King.
Again sounds very reasonable and I wont dispute the figures and can see where you are coming from in terms of not wanting to subsidise the debt that the glazers have dumped onto the club.SALFORD RED said:Will "try" to answer your points mate but i honestly don't know the answers to everything. ( wish i did ).
I can see your views regarding the second paragraph and not knowing the bureaucracy of buying any players before or after Glazers i cannot guess at how it works.
Success ...yes...but at what price. Where does it stop ? Say a player or two comes up for sale at Â£100m ( wont be long now), the money has to come from somewhere.....yes, yet again fans pockets....ticket prices etc...double. Next player Â£150m, then Â£200m.......tickets now Â£150 a time and so on. Fans will only take so much, no matter how many cups United wins.
Money from loans ? I'll post up the latest financial figures for Uniteds borrowing and debt so you ( or anyone else) can see where things are going. The highlighted parts are the bits that matter the most for anyone who struggles to understand it
2nd paragraph. Gill and Charlton...reasonable men ? I dont even want to really go there mate.
Having dialogue with the club ? Would this be the same club that refuse to have any dialogue with supporters or any supporters groups ?The lack of communication and the absolute indifference to fans concerns is totaly down to the club.
It's not just FC supporters who hate the Glazers, there are thousands of reds, some matchgoing, some not.
In relation to the statistics as to what other clubs charge i'll give you Chelskis. Note that the rent boys are not forced into an ACS and in fact LOWER prices for cup games. By the way did you know Villa wanted to reduce prices for their game ? Guess what.......United refused point blank. Shows who wants as much money off the fans as possible in my eyes.
CHELSEA TICKET PRICING 2007/08
FA Premier League Ticket Prices
AREA, ADULT MEMBER, ADULT GEN SALE, JUVENILE/
SNR CITIZEN MEMBER JUVENILE/
GEN SALE STUDENT MEMBERS 16-21 YRS
East Upper Â£48 Â£53 Â£20 Â£22.50 Â£35
East Lower Family Centre Â£35 Â£40 Â£15 Â£17.50 N/A
West Lower Â£48 Â£53 N/A N/A N/A
West Upper Â£60 Â£65 N/A N/A N/A
West Middle N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
Matthew Harding Upper Â£48 Â£53 N/A N/A N/A
Matthew Harding Lower Â£45 Â£50 N/A N/A N/A
Shed End Upper Â£48 Â£53 N/A N/A N/A
Shed End Lower Â£45 Â£50 N/A N/A N/A
Shed End Lower Away Visitors N/A Â£45 N/A Â£20 N/A
Shed End Upper Away Visitors N/A Â£48 N/A Â£20 N/A
Restricted View Seating Â£43.00 East Upper and Â£22.50 Matthew Harding Lower
FA Cup games Â£25
League Cup games Â£20
Champions League group games Â£25
Financial figures for United.
Taking the figures from the July 2006 refinancing documents, copies of which can be seen, this is United's current interest and debt service bill and it is frightening to anyone who remembers what happened to Leeds and who fears the same thing happening to United or any other club which takes on such massive debts.
Due to recent turmoil in the financial markets, and cumulative interest rate rises since July 2006 when the original acquisition debt was refinanced, the total annualised debt cost to Manchester United has hit Â£100 million for the first time since the takeover in 2005.
1. First tier senior secured debt
6-month LIBOR is currently at 6.68875% Annual interest
A loan 7 year term Â£75m 2.125% over LIBOR = 8.81375% 6.61m
B loan 8 year term Â£150m 2.625% over LIBOR = 9.31375% 13.97m
C loan 9 year term Â£150m 3.000% over LIBOR = 9.68875% 14.53m
Revolver 7 year term Â£50m Undrawn in 2006, interest rate unknown*
2. Second tier â€˜lien tranche'
10 year term Â£150m 5.50% over LIBOR = 12.18875% 18.28m
3. PiK debt
Â£155.25m 15% p.a. rolling up into principal
Total outstanding loans Â£660m*
Total interest payable annualised as at September 2007 = 53.39m
Total annual principal payments for 2007 (estimated) = 24.00m
Total annualised debt payments for 2007 = Â£77.39 million
Accrued interest on the PiK debt for 2007 = Â£23.28 million
Total annualised debt cost for 2007 = Â£100.67 million
*We are assuming no drawdown of the Working Capital Facility â€“ if MU has drawn on this facility to e.g. fund new players in the summer of 2007, the interest bill will be higher but it is not public information as to how much if this facility, if any, has been used.
Regarding your 1st paragraph....would be a pleasure to meet you fella. Can see us having some great conversation long into the night with plenty of beers.
Regards to Mrs Fergaiste and trust all is going well with the pregnancy. Get it posted on here when your little en is born ( with pics ), will be the first ManUtd Talk baby.
Just picking up a couple of points Sal.....SALFORD RED said:Where does it stop ? Say a player or two comes up for
sale at Â£100m ( wont be long now), the money has to come from
somewhere.....yes, yet again fans pockets....ticket prices etc...double. Next
player Â£150m, then Â£200m.......tickets now Â£150 a time and so on. Fans will only
take so much, no matter how many cups United wins.
Money from loans ?
It annoys the hell out of me the way the Galzers have beenstretty said:some great points carly cannot argue with you on most of them,
its just as a season ticket holder i was pissed off with the compulsory ticket
purchase scheme , that is totally unfair , i preferred it when we had to apply not
get charged automatically .
the glazers , i think everyone jumps on the band wagon and feels you have to
hate them because most united fans do, why ?
like i said the prices are goint to up , thats life , but basically are they any worse
than martin edwards?.
when the loan is cleared and they own it outright , then what will people moan
about then, they have found the happy medium paying off their loan and still
supporting saf in the transfer market.
all united fans are talking about new transfers ie berbatov etc , they have took it
for granted that if fergie wants players the money will be available , they have
not said no yet, unlike the dippers down the road , refusing to give anymore to