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Yes true, generally away supports are the die hard ones. Lets see what its like next time at OT before we start saying what fergie said had an affect!
 

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As A Celtic And United Fan,i Have To Admit That Fergie Has A Point,passion Is Needed At Old Trafford,a Standing Area Would Generate It Though
 
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Fergaiste said:
1) However as a devoted fan if I had the money or lived near Manchester I would not miss a game by hook or by crook.

2) as regards the glazers ok they have raised ticket prices however correct if I'm wrong the average price is still only £ 35 .

3) Imo Fergie is spot on and these FC united followers are just spoiled bitter turncoats who should know better.
I'll try to answer some of those points for you from a match going red of over 40 yrs, living 15 minutes from OT.

1) Exactly...IF you had the money....which thousands upon thousands of everyday supporters do not. IF you were the average family man, with a wife & children to support, rent, council tax, gas, electric, phone, and numerous other bills to pay every week i doubt you could even afford a programme. Real supporters priced out in favour of someone who has never seen a United game in their lives who will spend all game taking photos, and go back to China, America or wherever and say " look at me i'm a great United supporter".

2) Average £35 ? Ok we'll take that figure. ( if you forget the fee to be a one United member or buy tickets through the exchange scheme or buy from touts, like to know how you get yours ? ). Myself + 2 sons = £105, thats without buying anything else. £105 for every home match ...Double that for aways. So in one month ( 2 homes, 2 aways)... minimum....£630. ( not counting any cup games whatsoever ). Yeah ok the average man can afford to pay that every month, i definatly KNOW NOT !! I know...lets buy season tickets....except then you are forced into the ACS, meaning you forced to buy tickets for EVERY home cup game, whether you want them or not, meaning if i am workin or ill and cannot make a certain match it still costs me £105 for ?? .....NOTHING . ( I can only go as i get 2/3 free tickets for just about every game..otherwise ? I would not have been for about 7/8 years ).

3) Obviously from the comfort of your armchair watching United on TV you never heard the thousands of voices singing " Die, Die Glazer" ( then it went to "die, die city" same hatred) or that you know nothing of the 60,000 who sang " We are not for sale " ( some actually meant it, others sang for fun ) before the Glazer takeover, or the thousands who have not renewed season tickets in the last two years, either in protest or because they could not afford to.

Turncoats definition ?..one who switches to an opposing side or party.

Not one single FCUM fan that i know (yes i know hundreds, yes, i go to FCUM matches ) has switched to an opposing side or party. There were many, many long standing Reds, with 20,30,40 and 50 years under their belts at Villa Park today who support/go/own FCUM.
I would suggest that you find out a little bit more about FCUM fans and what they are actually about instead of comming out with the same old drivel that has been passed around the last two and a half years and which any self respecting person can see is complete rubbish.

Anyway Villa Park was rocking today ( as it always is when United go there ), was probably the best away of the season for me personally. All the old songs coming out, fans in great voice, ( where were Villa ???? ) 90 minutes of non-stop singing and gooning, 7,000 UNITED voices in Villa Park put 75,000 at OT to shame.

Lets see what happens next game at OT....The same ?? I bloody hope so but i doubt it very very much...

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This is getting sent around forums......
(Did you write this Sal? ;-)


Dear Mr Ferguson.

With regards to your comments concerning the atmosphere on New Years Days ‘big’ clash with Birmingham City at Old Trafford I would like to submit the following observations.

1. It was New Years Day….. most of the crowd were probably hung over/knackered or on corporate freebies (as quite a few people I knew were) or, on a jolly as they had tickets given to them cos the original ticket holder would not be attending due to it being New years and actually having a family, and a life outside of letting their wage packets be controlled by Mr Glazer and his ingenious ticket price increases and cup scheme deviousness .

2. You will probably find it will have been exactly the same atmosphere at a lot of grounds around the country. It is always quiet on New Years Day - even U2 sang about it being so…

3. If you want Old Trafford to be a ‘cauldron’ of intensity and fervour for the home team, why not make it affordable again to people on a normal wage? People say from Salford, Trafford, Stretford, to name a few. My brothers seats for this season are £45 each, he has been going since the 60’s and is United through and through, his comment regarding the price increases and cup game robbery plan? “ That’s it for me, how much can they keep squeezing a guy on a normal wage? They want us to pay £45 to watch the reserves playing teams like Exeter on a Wednesday night in the Carling cup, I wont be attending, so will be basically paying £45 to sit at home”. My brother and his mate are now buying a small fishing boat (no sh*t - my better off mates have took his books on) as he knows he can ‘day trip’ to games like most of our natural hometown support now have to. Maybe he will do so up the Irwell in his boat.

4. Because of the already mentioned price increases and the new ‘automatic cup con’ a lot of supporters now ‘share’ books, so go half as often, and get out of the habit of that home game mentality. You want to see the team, but you don’t feel a regular like you used to, so are not as up for it on every occasion as you feel a little bit of a stranger at times.

5. When I go for a meal and (pay £45 for the privilege) I do not expect to have to tell the chef how to cook it, or feel forced into encouraging him to perform his gastronomic skills for me, I compliment him after I taste the food, I am after all the one who is doing the paying.

6. When I go to see a band - I do not expect to have to show them how to play their instruments or goad them into putting a good show on for me. They are being paid thousands of pounds for that 90 minutes onstage, it is their job, and I again am one of the ones paying. WE are the customers here, it is no different to any business

7. Win, lose or draw, the players (including yourself) earn £xxxthousands for that game – Win lose or draw. I pay £45 for the same game.

8. And finally – you are in footballing terms without doubt a hero for every fan of this club (including myself), and one of the greatest managers this country has seen. This however does not give you license to say whatever you want and pass judgement about people who have supported this club since birth, some while you were still cutting your managerial teeth at St Mirren. You are from the same area of Glasgow as my stepfather, who stood outside the steelworks and shipyards everyday with his hand in the air asking for work, please do not loose contact with the common man, we do not take kindly to people in Ivory towers making out that it is our duty to make overpaid stars perform - or blaming the crowd if the players cannot be bothered to pick their game up - surely that is YOUR duty.

Maybe an idea is to pay them all less (including yourself) and cut ticket prices - I’ll then sing my b*llocks off every game as I’ll have had more money to spend on beer before the game to vibe me up on a cold winters morning, and also a bit extra in my wage packet every month for life’s necessities.


I shall await the “if you don’t like it you can go and watch Chelsea” reply…. Sir Matt would be turning in his grave.


Yours
A normal working class fan being gradually priced out
Salford.
 

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Hmmm its problematic...

I say You something... I'm watching all matchs United in Pub with my freinds (and we're singing all time! a lot of peoples laugh of us, because "we singing to TV" but it's great, true supporters group) ... In Poland get a ticket for a match is veeeeeery hard and very expensive to go to England, but somebody was in Old Trafford (I want go in this year).
Whereas we are watching match and we see like people go left from Old Trafford... it's strange and sad for us, because much supporters from Poland want see United and they can't...

I like You want see what's happen in the newcastle game.
 
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Jazz 16 said:
This is getting sent around forums......
(Did you write this Sal? ;-)


.............. . .....

...... .. .....

I shall await the “if you don't like it you can go and watch Chelsea†reply…. Sir Matt would be turning in his grave.


Yours
A normal working class fan being gradually priced out
Salford.
No mate, can't claim that as mine.
Seen it on quite a few forums the last few days, also been in a couple of news papers as well.
If you go onto almost any United forum there's hundreds of fans writting very much the same thing. Sadly it's so true.
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SALFORD RED said:
I'll try to answer some of those points for you from a match going red of over 40 yrs, living 15 minutes from OT.

1) Exactly...IF you had the money....which thousands upon thousands of everyday supporters do not. IF you were the average family man, with a wife & children to support, rent, council tax, gas, electric, phone, and numerous other bills to pay every week i doubt you could even afford a programme. Real supporters priced out in favour of someone who has never seen a United game in their lives who will spend all game taking photos, and go back to China, America or wherever and say " look at me i'm a great United supporter".

2) Average £35 ? Ok we'll take that figure. ( if you forget the fee to be a one United member or buy tickets through the exchange scheme or buy from touts, like to know how you get yours ? ). Myself + 2 sons = £105, thats without buying anything else. £105 for every home match ...Double that for aways. So in one month ( 2 homes, 2 aways)... minimum....£630. ( not counting any cup games whatsoever ). Yeah ok the average man can afford to pay that every month, i definatly KNOW NOT !! I know...lets buy season tickets....except then you are forced into the ACS, meaning you forced to buy tickets for EVERY home cup game, whether you want them or not, meaning if i am workin or ill and cannot make a certain match it still costs me £105 for ?? .....NOTHING . ( I can only go as i get 2/3 free tickets for just about every game..otherwise ? I would not have been for about 7/8 years ).

3) Obviously from the comfort of your armchair watching United on TV you never heard the thousands of voices singing " Die, Die Glazer" ( then it went to "die, die city" same hatred) or that you know nothing of the 60,000 who sang " We are not for sale " ( some actually meant it, others sang for fun ) before the Glazer takeover, or the thousands who have not renewed season tickets in the last two years, either in protest or because they could not afford to.

Turncoats definition ?..one who switches to an opposing side or party.

Not one single FCUM fan that i know (yes i know hundreds, yes, i go to FCUM matches ) has switched to an opposing side or party. There were many, many long standing Reds, with 20,30,40 and 50 years under their belts at Villa Park today who support/go/own FCUM.
I would suggest that you find out a little bit more about FCUM fans and what they are actually about instead of comming out with the same old drivel that has been passed around the last two and a half years and which any self respecting person can see is complete rubbish.

Anyway Villa Park was rocking today ( as it always is when United go there ), was probably the best away of the season for me personally. All the old songs coming out, fans in great voice, ( where were Villa ???? ) 90 minutes of non-stop singing and gooning, 7,000 UNITED voices in Villa Park put 75,000 at OT to shame.

Lets see what happens next game at OT....The same ?? I bloody hope so but i doubt it very very much...

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Ok fair enough maybe my choice of words were a bit harsh and i kind of knew it would wind somebody up!!!I accept that the gLAZERS have pushed up the price to ridiculous levels which as you have out lined above are far more than i thought. When I said "if i had the money" I meant just to go over from Ireland every week but little did I realise!!! i by the way have been over on 7 occasions for matches ,none of which were against the big four, and thought the atmosphere
was fantastic

I also fully endorse any campaign from supporters pressure groups to put a stop to this madness of ticket gazumping. If you need me to co sign a petition to this end i will gladly do so. i am also ver much an advocate of the safe standing proposal thats being touted in england as having being to croke park here in Dublin Hill 16 is vital to the noise and atmosphere in the ground.

However i am a firm believer in the Lyndon b Johnson maxim that you are better off being inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in. From my knowledge of theses fc united fans which is limited to reading united we stand fanzines and other anecdotal sources i just find that these people will not achieve anything by deserting the club(sorry turncoat was the wrong word).

Also you have not responded to my earelier remark that Fergie has stated that the glazers have simplified the process where he wants to buy a player. In times gone by due the bureaucracy or Martin edwards parsimonous handling of the kitty. where previously we were unable to sign players like marcin desailly now we hve free reign to go after players like anderson, nani etc. Look at liverpool's situation at the moment as a contrast.

finally it is my honest genuine hope that thse hardcore fans that have left since 2005 return as the club needs them and in a time where we , in fergies words, have our strongest ever squad, and are capable of winning the treble this season they are only depriving themselves of the potential euphoria of us winning things.

Can you also by the way compare the prices of the london clubs to united's ? the general opinion is that chelsea, arsenal etc charge far more with only arsenal providing as much entertainment in terms of attacking football as us.

also the protesters hardly help their cause by singing die die glazer. surely they should realise that by hearing this the more likely the Glazers will dig theri heals. i know I would if I were them
 
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I appreciate the way you have seriously read what i wrote and understood 99% of the points i was trying to get across and i thank you for that. Other people may have responded the exact opposit but you have show by your reply that you are not someone whose eyes are blinkered and is willing to listen to both sides of the debate and make your own judgement. The same way as i am.

The Glazers have not simplified the process of buying a player in any way. If anything they have placed a lot of restrictions on United buying anyone. ( wonder why we never bought anyone in the transfere window, everyone agrees there's areas that need strengthening, maybe SAF was told " sorry, no money" )But did we not buy any great players before Glazer ? Did we not win the treble in 99 ? Did we never do anything before May 2005 ? Of course the answer is ...obviously we did and achieved greatness. Also i think you need to look a bit more closely at the way in which we bought Nani and Anderson, not even been paid for yet and wont be for another 2-3 years. Dont believe when you hear that United have paid out £70m+ this season on players. Fact is it's nothing like that.
The only difference now is.....Pre Glazer United debt ...ZERO. Glazer takeover...United debt now stands at something like £650m, with £65m (and rising) interest to be paid every year. Where is the money coming from to pay that bebt.....yes, from the fans pockets, being forced to pay at every turning.

Die die Glazer ? If you knew of the real hatred of the Glazers by United fans and the people of Manchester you'd be very supprised. Dont know if it was shown but at Villa Park there was a giant banner unfurled reading...LOVE UNITED. HATE GLAZER. Whever they are in Manchester they are greeted with protests, covered in tomato sauce, abused, cars stoned, cannot sleep quietly in their hotels and have to have police protection every step they take. Coming from Ireland i would guess you'd understand and know of how deep the hatred runs and how people really feel. L.U.H.G membership probably stands at something like 100,000 reds worldwide ( dont quote me on that figure ).

Chelski and Arsewipes prices ? I honestly have no idea ( can find out for you if you wish) as i have no interest whatsoever in how other cubs are run or priced. But i can tel you that Arsewipe fans are about 12 months away from having a FC Arsewipes, and the Bindippers fans are already talking about going that route as well.
Have a look at just how many fan owned clubs there are in England, you'll be supprised mate, 2 that you'll know AFC Wimbledon, AFC Telford, abroad there is hundreds including Lok Leipzig and probably the biggest is ...Barcelona.

Only thing you said wrong is....FCUM fans have deserted the club ( United )...NO they haven't, they still love United, watch every game possible on TV ( like 50m+ worldwide), still go to aways, still stand shoulder to shoulder with fellow Reds singing their hearts out for United. Only difference being....they refuse to go to OT and pay one penny out of their pockets to pay of the Glazers debts and pay for them ( and others)to live millionaires lifestyles, while the man in the street suffers. So 2,000+ said " we've had enough of being taken for mugs", put their money together, got some players and a manager and created a football team, where each member is as equal as the next person and somewhere we can take our families at 3pm on a saturday, watch a game of football, STAND, sing, go where you want in the ground, be with your mates, pay £11.50 for myself and two kids and have a million times better day than you can at OT paying £105.

look up FC United on wikipedia mate, will tell you lots more than i can. ;)
And the next time you are in Manchester for a United game, i'll treat you to a FCUM match. Let you talk to the fans/members/owners/supporters, you'll be made very welcome and you can judge for yourself then if FCUM supporters are..traitors/turncoats/deserters/judas/scum/not real reds/glory hunters( strange one that, lol ).

Always glad to "try" to answer anything you ask fella, and it's great to have some decent craic and discussions on here. No one is ever right and no-one is ever wrong, everybody has their own opinions and i really enjoy listening to others points of view. I may not agree with someones opinion but i will defend your right to have that opinion.

PS..Firm believer in Martin Luthar King. ;)
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Good points well made Sal. I was thinking of going to a FCUM match some time later this month just to see what it's like. Might see you there, I'll be the one in a United shirt :rolleyes:
 

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SALFORD RED said:
I appreciate the way you have seriously read what i wrote and understood 99% of the points i was trying to get across and i thank you for that. Other people may have responded the exact opposit but you have show by your reply that you are not someone whose eyes are blinkered and is willing to listen to both sides of the debate and make your own judgement. The same way as i am.

The Glazers have not simplified the process of buying a player in any way. If anything they have placed a lot of restrictions on United buying anyone. ( wonder why we never bought anyone in the transfere window, everyone agrees there's areas that need strengthening, maybe SAF was told " sorry, no money" )But did we not buy any great players before Glazer ? Did we not win the treble in 99 ? Did we never do anything before May 2005 ? Of course the answer is ...obviously we did and achieved greatness. Also i think you need to look a bit more closely at the way in which we bought Nani and Anderson, not even been paid for yet and wont be for another 2-3 years. Dont believe when you hear that United have paid out £70m+ this season on players. Fact is it's nothing like that.
The only difference now is.....Pre Glazer United debt ...ZERO. Glazer takeover...United debt now stands at something like £650m, with £65m (and rising) interest to be paid every year. Where is the money coming from to pay that bebt.....yes, from the fans pockets, being forced to pay at every turning.

Die die Glazer ? If you knew of the real hatred of the Glazers by United fans and the people of Manchester you'd be very supprised. Dont know if it was shown but at Villa Park there was a giant banner unfurled reading...LOVE UNITED. HATE GLAZER. Whever they are in Manchester they are greeted with protests, covered in tomato sauce, abused, cars stoned, cannot sleep quietly in their hotels and have to have police protection every step they take. Coming from Ireland i would guess you'd understand and know of how deep the hatred runs and how people really feel. L.U.H.G membership probably stands at something like 100,000 reds worldwide ( dont quote me on that figure ).

Chelski and Arsewipes prices ? I honestly have no idea ( can find out for you if you wish) as i have no interest whatsoever in how other cubs are run or priced. But i can tel you that Arsewipe fans are about 12 months away from having a FC Arsewipes, and the Bindippers fans are already talking about going that route as well.
Have a look at just how many fan owned clubs there are in England, you'll be supprised mate, 2 that you'll know AFC Wimbledon, AFC Telford, abroad there is hundreds including Lok Leipzig and probably the biggest is ...Barcelona.

Only thing you said wrong is....FCUM fans have deserted the club ( United )...NO they haven't, they still love United, watch every game possible on TV ( like 50m+ worldwide), still go to aways, still stand shoulder to shoulder with fellow Reds singing their hearts out for United. Only difference being....they refuse to go to OT and pay one penny out of their pockets to pay of the Glazers debts and pay for them ( and others)to live millionaires lifestyles, while the man in the street suffers. So 2,000+ said " we've had enough of being taken for mugs", put their money together, got some players and a manager and created a football team, where each member is as equal as the next person and somewhere we can take our families at 3pm on a saturday, watch a game of football, STAND, sing, go where you want in the ground, be with your mates, pay £11.50 for myself and two kids and have a million times better day than you can at OT paying £105.

look up FC United on wikipedia mate, will tell you lots more than i can. ;)
And the next time you are in Manchester for a United game, i'll treat you to a FCUM match. Let you talk to the fans/members/owners/supporters, you'll be made very welcome and you can judge for yourself then if FCUM supporters are..traitors/turncoats/deserters/judas/scum/not real reds/glory hunters( strange one that, lol ).

Always glad to "try" to answer anything you ask fella, and it's great to have some decent craic and discussions on here. No one is ever right and no-one is ever wrong, everybody has their own opinions and i really enjoy listening to others points of view. I may not agree with someones opinion but i will defend your right to have that opinion.

PS..Firm believer in Martin Luthar King. ;)
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Ok points well made and thanks for the invite... maybe next season you never know this season's out with my spouse about to have a child but thanks anyway. I still would challenge a couple of things you said above.

Firstly alex Ferguson has stated,maybe its propoganda, that no longer does he have to go through the layers of bureaucracy when wanting to sign a player like he had when united was a plc.This was especially pertinent when signing Vidic and Evra and what great signings they have been which may not hAve happened Now I know we signed quality players pre 2005 however although we won the league 8 or 9 times between 1993 and 2003 we only won 1 eurpean cup which hopefully will be put right this year. now for the biggest club in world football i don't believe that's good enough. I mentioned Desailly but I am sure there are more where United money men lacked the ambition and foresight to go out and buy the best. When you look at the mickeys winning in 2005 and runner up in 2007 we have grossly underachieved in that competition. If the glazers are facilitating these buys on borrowed money is it not better for the club in the long run in terms of what we could achieve with these players in terms of financial gain of European success not to mention bragging rights with that shower by the mersey.

In terms of the FC united following ok they have not deserted the club completely but they are conspicuous by their absence at OT. As i said before united needs thes fans as by not going they are only facilitating thes day trippers or prawn sandwich brigade who are only too glad to take their place. I genuinely don't see how they are going to achieve anything by staying away and are definitely not advancing their cause with the bullying tactics that you mentioned above. surely there must be some way of arranging dialogue with reasonable men like Bobby charlton or David Gill.

in relation to the statistics as to what other clubs charge I have read quite a few articles where chelsea,spurs,arsenal all charge almost twice what the average price is at OT and even UWS fanzine were slating the minister for Sport, aunited fan, for calling for an investigation into ticket pricing at OT.
 
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Will "try" to answer your points mate but i honestly don't know the answers to everything. ( wish i did ).

I can see your views regarding the second paragraph and not knowing the bureaucracy of buying any players before or after Glazers i cannot guess at how it works.
Success ...yes...but at what price. Where does it stop ? Say a player or two comes up for sale at £100m ( wont be long now), the money has to come from somewhere.....yes, yet again fans pockets....ticket prices etc...double. Next player £150m, then £200m.......tickets now £150 a time and so on. Fans will only take so much, no matter how many cups United wins.
Money from loans ? I'll post up the latest financial figures for Uniteds borrowing and debt so you ( or anyone else) can see where things are going. The highlighted parts are the bits that matter the most for anyone who struggles to understand it

2nd paragraph. Gill and Charlton...reasonable men ? I dont even want to really go there mate.
Having dialogue with the club ? Would this be the same club that refuse to have any dialogue with supporters or any supporters groups ?The lack of communication and the absolute indifference to fans concerns is totaly down to the club.
It's not just FC supporters who hate the Glazers, there are thousands of reds, some matchgoing, some not.

In relation to the statistics as to what other clubs charge i'll give you Chelskis. Note that the rent boys are not forced into an ACS and in fact LOWER prices for cup games. By the way did you know Villa wanted to reduce prices for their game ? Guess what.......United refused point blank. Shows who wants as much money off the fans as possible in my eyes.

CHELSEA TICKET PRICING 2007/08


FA Premier League Ticket Prices

AREA, ADULT MEMBER, ADULT GEN SALE, JUVENILE/
SNR CITIZEN MEMBER JUVENILE/
SNR CITIZEN
GEN SALE STUDENT MEMBERS 16-21 YRS
East Upper £48 £53 £20 £22.50 £35
East Lower Family Centre £35 £40 £15 £17.50 N/A
West Lower £48 £53 N/A N/A N/A
West Upper £60 £65 N/A N/A N/A
West Middle N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
Matthew Harding Upper £48 £53 N/A N/A N/A
Matthew Harding Lower £45 £50 N/A N/A N/A
Shed End Upper £48 £53 N/A N/A N/A
Shed End Lower £45 £50 N/A N/A N/A
Shed End Lower Away Visitors N/A £45 N/A £20 N/A
Shed End Upper Away Visitors N/A £48 N/A £20 N/A
Restricted View Seating £43.00 East Upper and £22.50 Matthew Harding Lower

FA Cup games £25
League Cup games £20
Champions League group games £25



Financial figures for United.

Taking the figures from the July 2006 refinancing documents, copies of which can be seen, this is United’s current interest and debt service bill and it is frightening to anyone who remembers what happened to Leeds and who fears the same thing happening to United or any other club which takes on such massive debts.

Due to recent turmoil in the financial markets, and cumulative interest rate rises since July 2006 when the original acquisition debt was refinanced, the total annualised debt cost to Manchester United has hit £100 million for the first time since the takeover in 2005.

1. First tier senior secured debt

6-month LIBOR is currently at 6.68875% Annual interest

A loan 7 year term £75m 2.125% over LIBOR = 8.81375% 6.61m
B loan 8 year term £150m 2.625% over LIBOR = 9.31375% 13.97m
C loan 9 year term £150m 3.000% over LIBOR = 9.68875% 14.53m
Working Cap
Revolver 7 year term £50m Undrawn in 2006, interest rate unknown*

2. Second tier ‘lien tranche’

10 year term £150m 5.50% over LIBOR = 12.18875% 18.28m

3. PiK debt

£155.25m 15% p.a. rolling up into principal

Total outstanding loans £660m*

Total interest payable annualised as at September 2007 = 53.39m

Total annual principal payments for 2007 (estimated) = 24.00m

Total annualised debt payments for 2007 = £77.39 million

Accrued interest on the PiK debt for 2007 = £23.28 million

Total annualised debt cost for 2007 = £100.67 million



*We are assuming no drawdown of the Working Capital Facility – if MU has drawn on this facility to e.g. fund new players in the summer of 2007, the interest bill will be higher but it is not public information as to how much if this facility, if any, has been used.



Regarding your 1st paragraph....would be a pleasure to meet you fella. Can see us having some great conversation long into the night with plenty of beers.
Regards to Mrs Fergaiste and trust all is going well with the pregnancy. Get it posted on here when your little en is born ( with pics ), will be the first ManUtd Talk baby. :) ;)

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SALFORD RED said:
Will "try" to answer your points mate but i honestly don't know the answers to everything. ( wish i did ).

I can see your views regarding the second paragraph and not knowing the bureaucracy of buying any players before or after Glazers i cannot guess at how it works.
Success ...yes...but at what price. Where does it stop ? Say a player or two comes up for sale at £100m ( wont be long now), the money has to come from somewhere.....yes, yet again fans pockets....ticket prices etc...double. Next player £150m, then £200m.......tickets now £150 a time and so on. Fans will only take so much, no matter how many cups United wins.
Money from loans ? I'll post up the latest financial figures for Uniteds borrowing and debt so you ( or anyone else) can see where things are going. The highlighted parts are the bits that matter the most for anyone who struggles to understand it

2nd paragraph. Gill and Charlton...reasonable men ? I dont even want to really go there mate.
Having dialogue with the club ? Would this be the same club that refuse to have any dialogue with supporters or any supporters groups ?The lack of communication and the absolute indifference to fans concerns is totaly down to the club.
It's not just FC supporters who hate the Glazers, there are thousands of reds, some matchgoing, some not.

In relation to the statistics as to what other clubs charge i'll give you Chelskis. Note that the rent boys are not forced into an ACS and in fact LOWER prices for cup games. By the way did you know Villa wanted to reduce prices for their game ? Guess what.......United refused point blank. Shows who wants as much money off the fans as possible in my eyes.

CHELSEA TICKET PRICING 2007/08


FA Premier League Ticket Prices

AREA, ADULT MEMBER, ADULT GEN SALE, JUVENILE/
SNR CITIZEN MEMBER JUVENILE/
SNR CITIZEN
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FA Cup games £25
League Cup games £20
Champions League group games £25



Financial figures for United.

Taking the figures from the July 2006 refinancing documents, copies of which can be seen, this is United's current interest and debt service bill and it is frightening to anyone who remembers what happened to Leeds and who fears the same thing happening to United or any other club which takes on such massive debts.

Due to recent turmoil in the financial markets, and cumulative interest rate rises since July 2006 when the original acquisition debt was refinanced, the total annualised debt cost to Manchester United has hit £100 million for the first time since the takeover in 2005.

1. First tier senior secured debt

6-month LIBOR is currently at 6.68875% Annual interest

A loan 7 year term £75m 2.125% over LIBOR = 8.81375% 6.61m
B loan 8 year term £150m 2.625% over LIBOR = 9.31375% 13.97m
C loan 9 year term £150m 3.000% over LIBOR = 9.68875% 14.53m
Working Cap
Revolver 7 year term £50m Undrawn in 2006, interest rate unknown*

2. Second tier ‘lien tranche'

10 year term £150m 5.50% over LIBOR = 12.18875% 18.28m

3. PiK debt

£155.25m 15% p.a. rolling up into principal

Total outstanding loans £660m*

Total interest payable annualised as at September 2007 = 53.39m

Total annual principal payments for 2007 (estimated) = 24.00m

Total annualised debt payments for 2007 = £77.39 million

Accrued interest on the PiK debt for 2007 = £23.28 million

Total annualised debt cost for 2007 = £100.67 million



*We are assuming no drawdown of the Working Capital Facility – if MU has drawn on this facility to e.g. fund new players in the summer of 2007, the interest bill will be higher but it is not public information as to how much if this facility, if any, has been used.



Regarding your 1st paragraph....would be a pleasure to meet you fella. Can see us having some great conversation long into the night with plenty of beers.
Regards to Mrs Fergaiste and trust all is going well with the pregnancy. Get it posted on here when your little en is born ( with pics ), will be the first ManUtd Talk baby. :) ;)

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Again sounds very reasonable and I wont dispute the figures and can see where you are coming from in terms of not wanting to subsidise the debt that the glazers have dumped onto the club.

However and I know its easy for me to say looking from the outside in but these very reasonable points can surely be put to the club. Surely someone like Gary Neville can act as a go between in representing the fan's views although me thinks that the players/ manager/board of directors are too afraid to speak out for fear of losing their jobs. I know as a United fan of 27 years who would rather see Ireland lose or Dublin lose in gaelic football than the reds suffer defeat I would explore all avenues to keep the real fans on board and maintain the ATMOSPHERE in the theatre of dreams. Meeting mancs like yourself (or boyley whom i met at the Lille match last March) for an OT match would be extra special as you say over a few beers when i am just used to discussing united with armchair fans over here . Especially so as I have a number of cousins living in Irlam who all follow the massive club over at eastlands so are damn all use to me!!!.

Anyway am going off the point, i wonder can you or somebody else enlighten me as to how the safe standing campaign is going. It seems it was gathering momentum before the start of this season but seems to have died away. This initiative would undoubtedly cheer up Ferguson and would have his support. Even city allegedly have a singing area that stokes up the atmosphere at an admittedly half empty council house. To give you an example and relevant to my first paragraph Dublin fans refused to contemplate the demolishing of Hill 16 when The GAA threatened to do so. We won out in the end and this terrace is crucial to the noise and colour which contributes to Croke park being one of the top 3 stadia in Europe.

I never agreed with the taylor report which was essentially the nanny state gone mad and believe that more pressure needs to be put on the british government/ Fa to get moving on this. Maybe then Fergie will stop blaming the fans for poor performances.

finally i'll see what I can do re getting photos for gthe baby(due next week) although we won't be dressing up the child in tacky man united baby clothes. I certainly will not go to the museaum for that!!!!
 
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Good how Reds always find a common ground. ;)
But even better to listen to others points of view and understand where they are coming from. Besides yourself i've had some good conversations with quite a few on here the last couple of months. Supprising to listen to so many different opinions and great sharing views, and it's great that some of the younger eliment are happy to learn the history and stories of United and are not blinkered in gloryhunter ways.

Some of us will definatly have to meet up for a game and a pint ( or 10), not supprised you know Boyley, ( he was on BBC tv last night) met him a few times myself, lives not far away. I'd not be supprised if we have common friends, know quite a few Irish guys in Irlam, Mrs Sals sister married to a bitter blue Irish guy. ( hope it's not one of your brothers, lol, throw me a PM with names etc mate).
Being a Red of 27 years must put us in the same age area as me ( 49 here), and Mactheconny 37, scots Red, and a few other old school reds on here.

I've gone well of track here and lost where we were up to. So will try to find the path again.

Only wish the same things as yourself for OT, but just cannot see it ever happening in my lifetime. If OT had Hill 16 that would be he topping on the cake. Or better still the whole ground like Croke Park, but sadly OT has gone from the way it was. ( got some great pics and vids if you ever want them, going back to the 70s ).

No idea where the safe standing is up to lately, used to get monthly news letters but had nothing for a few months now. Seems to have lost momentum. Even Google throws up nothing new. http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=stand+up+sit+down&btnG=Google+Search&meta=cr=countryUK|countryGB

You go and look after your other half now fella and i really do hope all goes well and you get a lovely SON who turns out to be the next BEST one. No tacky replica kit for the young en but get them pics up on here as soon as.
Talking of Best, did you know FC raise thousands for the G.B. Foundation ? Or that Barbara comes to FC and hears 2,500 singing " we all live in a Georgie Best world ". Lump in the throat, wet eyes stuff mate.

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SALFORD RED said:
Where does it stop ? Say a player or two comes up for
sale at £100m ( wont be long now), the money has to come from
somewhere.....yes, yet again fans pockets....ticket prices etc...double. Next
player £150m, then £200m.......tickets now £150 a time and so on. Fans will only
take so much, no matter how many cups United wins.
Money from loans ?
Just picking up a couple of points Sal.....

Hardly surprising I do this huh :p

Let's assume the Glazers suddenly have a rush of blood to the head - and decide
the fans are the most important thing in the whole wide world.

In this moment of passion they decide ALL tickets should be 20 pounds.

Cheapest in the Prem - as they want to look after the fans.

So.....

How do we buy players now ?

Success comes at a price doesn't it ?

You want to compete with the best - you need the best players - simple fact !!

Is it The Glazers fault the price of a player will/may reach £100 Million ?

Of course not - we can't blame them for everything ffs.

So assuming the players become £100 Million for a good one - without annoying
the fans with price increases - how do they pay for them - where is the money
going to come from ?

By saying they shouldn't raise prices - you leave them with one option.....

Take out a loan.......

Then people complain about the 'debts'........!!

The Glazers are in an impossible situation......

"You cant raise ticket prices Malcolm because we don't like that.....

You cant make money from merchandising Malcolm because we dont like that.....

You cant take out ANY loans Malcolm because we dont like that......."

So what can he do ?

As for ticket prices - of all the 20 teams in the Prem League United come 10th -
they are the 10th most expensive club. Reading and Spurs charge a lot more
then United do. I published the league table on here somewhere - I'll find it
again later.

Where did these 'accounting' figures come from too ?

Just out of interest.

The Glazers are not obliged to publish them - I'd be surprised if they did too.

As a PLC United had no choice but to make figures public obviously.....

But as a privately owned company they have need or obligation to do so.

It would be like you posting your tax returns on here - as a self employed man - would you do that ?

I think not.....

Anyway - just a couple things that got me thinking.....

What do you think ?

Let's play pretend for a moment.....

Let's go forward 7 years.....

The debts have been paid off....

We have 3 Champions League wins.....

5 more Prem League wins.....

3 FA Cups.....

2 Carling cups and 4 Community Shiled Trophies.....

Not impossible is it ?

We have a team capable of this......

What would your views on The Glazers be then ?
 

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some great points carly cannot argue with you on most of them, its just as a season ticket holder i was pissed off with the compulsory ticket purchase scheme , that is totally unfair , i preferred it when we had to apply not get charged automatically .
the glazers , i think everyone jumps on the band wagon and feels you have to hate them because most united fans do, why ?
like i said the prices are goint to up , thats life , but basically are they any worse than martin edwards?.
when the loan is cleared and they own it outright , then what will people moan about then, they have found the happy medium paying off their loan and still supporting saf in the transfer market.
all united fans are talking about new transfers ie berbatov etc , they have took it for granted that if fergie wants players the money will be available , they have not said no yet, unlike the dippers down the road , refusing to give anymore to benitez
 

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stretty said:
some great points carly cannot argue with you on most of them,
its just as a season ticket holder i was pissed off with the compulsory ticket
purchase scheme , that is totally unfair , i preferred it when we had to apply not
get charged automatically .
the glazers , i think everyone jumps on the band wagon and feels you have to
hate them because most united fans do, why ?
like i said the prices are goint to up , thats life , but basically are they any worse
than martin edwards?.
when the loan is cleared and they own it outright , then what will people moan
about then, they have found the happy medium paying off their loan and still
supporting saf in the transfer market.
all united fans are talking about new transfers ie berbatov etc , they have took it
for granted that if fergie wants players the money will be available , they have
not said no yet, unlike the dippers down the road , refusing to give anymore to
benitez
It annoys the hell out of me the way the Galzers have been
treated - but I speak as a none match going person - and I'm entitled to my
views anyway.

I look at it as something we have and no matter what ANYONE does or says - The
Glazers are going nowehere.

Everyone is more than happy to celebrate the performances of Nani, Anderson,
OH and Tevez. I'm also of the opinion United have pulled off a bit of a clever deal
with these guys too. Staggered payments etc etc.

I paid £7000 for my car - if it breaks down now too bad !!!

I wish I could pay £1000......

Then if it does 2000 miles with no problems I pay another £2000....

Then if it does......well you get the picture !!

Any one of these players could have turned out to be flops - it happens all the
time - but with this method of payment - if they are no good we pay a lot less for
them !!

I do agree the cup scheme is a bit annoying for guys like you.

All the extra cash is a burden of course.

I understand WHY it was done - not hard to really is it......

Just to guarantee a 'full' ground every game......

So I agree this is a bit of a naughty move by them..

We need to look for the good points in things now - constantly slagging off The
Glazers is no way to move forward i

Not for me anyway.
 

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I like to point out too that I do understand how the fans who follow United
through the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s feel. Back then it was 'just' a football
club. These guys felt a part of the Club I imagine.

They were from Manchester - the club was from Manchester and there was a
huge connection of - "It's 'our' club".....

The thing is - times move on - things change.

United is a victim of it's own success.

It became bigger than the 'club' it started out as.....

It became so big in fact that it was inevitable United as a brand name and as a
business was going to attract this kind of takeover.

It is now a global brand name - it's bigger than many people can even begin to
imagine !!!

Being such a massive brand name guarantees success.....which is good !!

I was taught in my accountancy degree - the following:

Take McDonalds - the biggest 'Brand Name' in the world.....

McDonalds and Coca Cola swap places as number one regularly but for now
McDonalds holds the top spot.

As a business right now worth maybe £400,000,000,000.....

You could burn down every restaurant they own. You could destroy all the
equipment they own. You could sell off ALL the land they own. You could close
down all the supply companies they own. You could get rid of all the staff and
burn their uniforms.

What would you be left with if you were the owner of McDonalds ?

A piece of paper saying you own the name 'McDonalds'.

That's it !!

Just a piece of paper saying you own the 'brand name' of McDonalds.

And that piece of paper would be worth £400,000,000,000 !!!

Because a brand name such as McDonalds - or Manchester United - guarantees
success and money - it has a huge following !!

Yes at one time it did belong to Manchester - it was 'their club' and I find it sad for
them as people and as a City to have this happen to their club. I feel for them -
how they must be saddened by this.

But it has happened - another 'success story' maybe ?

It's up to guys like Sal, Mac, Charles and others who should keep these memories
and stories circulating - about the good old days - and they do that here - let's
hear some more guys ;)

But remember this......

No matter what happens - Glazer and no one else can buy the history of this club
- he can't buy the memories of this club - history and memories are etched in the
minds of those who were there and those who made the history and the
memories - and we as fans must keep these memories alive and well.....and
whether you like Glazer or not - we must all stick together because we all love
one thing that is common to us all.......

GLORY GLORY MAN UNITED..........
 
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