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Discussion Starter #1
Johnny Giles, an Irish football pundit, summed the match up perfectly when he said,

Lyon had the ambition to win the match but not the class, United had the class but not the ambition.

United went out and sat on their arses, Hargreaves (we might aswell have had Ivan Campo playing), and asking Paul Scholes, one of the most talented and creative midfielders the world has ever seen to play in a team with those tactics was a joke and an embarrassment to him. No movement from our players, no passion, no sign of the desire that we saw from the lads against Arsenal on Saturday.

Fergie sent out a 4-5-1 formation with the intention of preventing Lyon from scoring and just waiting for us to nip a goal or for Ronaldo or Rooney to do something special. In my opinion, against a team of Lyon's calibre or in fact any team, that is an embarrassment to the club and the competition.

I believe that the football should come before the result, especially in the case of United, who always play their best football when closing teams down and playing attacking football that has been the trademark of our illustrious club for decades.

Why didn't Fergie send out his team with the kind of passion and attacking football they displayed against Arsenal at the weekend, why did the team sit back and play square passes and constantly give the ball away until Lyon deservedly scored, and only then show some ambition to win the game.

I honestly believe we could have finished off the tie in Lyon on Wednesday night had it not been for Fergie and his, all I can think of is, "Benitez-style" tactics.

Our football and desire was an embarrassment to the fans who travelled to the match, to our traditional way of playing football and to the CL.

Afterall, we don't have the divine right to win at OT, why the hell were we playing for a draw?? It just amazes me. Where was the passion, where was the willingness to show even some ambition of winning the game, where was the team that chased and harried a terrified Arsenal team on Saturday.

Attack Europe Fergie, because you'll regret it if you don't, and if we have any more performances or display any more tactics like those that we did against Lyon on Wednesday night, we will be in for a big shock when we come up against some real competition.
 

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i must admit that i wish we would attack away from home in europe a bit more, as teams like lyon would kak themselves, we are and should believe we are better than them
 

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wow. i agree 100%. I cud hav written that myself. I was listening to Giles and was thinkin the same ting. This problem isn't knew, it's been going down for bout 4 or 5 years now. The team we finished for the game were far better goin forward than the team we started. I know it's an old cliche but the best form of defence is attack. When we play Hargreeves it seems we create more problems than solve them. Ivan Campo lol. But we all know we ar a better side than Lyon. How cud they cope with Nani, Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez and Anderson there is so much pace there? I don't understand taking a couple of quality players (tevez, nani) to accomodate others.

Another thing is we will probably play the attacking football we all crave in ot but how many teams do we see get knocked out on away goals. We should play attacking away as much as at home. I'd also like to add that there is not one team in the world that we can't go to play attacking football and beat. I'd love Barca home and away for a test. I tink we have the same attacking threat but a better defence. We''ll get through this round but if we want to finally win the Champ League again we definitely need to be more positive away from home.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
scott 4 evra said:
wow. i agree 100%. I cud hav written that myself. I was listening to Giles and was thinkin the same ting. This problem isn't knew, it's been going down for bout 4 or 5 years now. The team we finished for the game were far better goin forward than the team we started. I know it's an old cliche but the best form of defence is attack. When we play Hargreeves it seems we create more problems than solve them. Ivan Campo lol. But we all know we ar a better side than Lyon. How cud they cope with Nani, Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez and Anderson there is so much pace there? I don't understand taking a couple of quality players (tevez, nani) to accomodate others.

Another thing is we will probably play the attacking football we all crave in ot but how many teams do we see get knocked out on away goals. We should play attacking away as much as at home. I'd also like to add that there is not one team in the world that we can't go to play attacking football and beat. I'd love Barca home and away for a test. I tink we have the same attacking threat but a better defence. We''ll get through this round but if we want to finally win the Champ League again we definitely need to be more positive away from home.
Yes exactly, I agree. We are as good an attacking side as any other team in the world, and we proved that with 4 goals against Arsenal on saturday and 5 more today against a fired-up Newcastle side might I add.

All Lyon need at OT is 2 scrambled goals or a pice of brilliance from Benzema, which we now know he is capable of, and we could be heading out of the CL!!!

It's crazy saying that we are sure to win at OT, how many times have we said that before, (Man City ffs).

We have to start playing away from Europe with some ambition to go and win the match or else you're right, we'll be severely punished.
 

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Keano4taoiseach said:
Fergie sent out a 4-5-3 formation with the intention of preventing Lyon from scoring and just waiting for us to nip a goal or for Ronaldo or Rooney to do something special.
Wow. I wish I could've seen that United playing 4 - 5 - 3.:D

Van De Sar

Brown - Ferdinand - Vidic - Evra

Ronaldo - Hargreaves - Scholes - Carrick - Giggs

Tevez - Rooney - Nani

Bring on Anderson & Park later.;)
 

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We played 4-5-3? Uhhhh.

Oh and by the way, every single club in the world plays like that every other week for away games. It's just usually we dont have to since we're playing the Wigans or Newcastles and we have no need to be defensive when away. We just weren't used to those sit back tactics. Payed off though huh? Then they come to OT and get slaughtered.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
4-5-1 my bad ;) You knew what I meant!!!

I disagree Justice.

We should have played attacking football against Lyon and now the pressure if firmly on us to win at OT because we didn't.

Now at OT, as well as trying to win the game, we have to contain Beenzema and try and prevent giving away free-kicks in dangerous positions because of the threat from Juninho.
 

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Keano4taoiseach said:
4-5-1 my bad ;) You knew what I meant!!!

I disagree Justice.

We should have played attacking football against Lyon and now the pressure if firmly on us to win at OT because we didn't.

Now at OT, as well as trying to win the game, we have to contain Beenzema and try and prevent giving away free-kicks in dangerous positions because of the threat from Juninho.
we've to deal with two players, they've to deal with: rooney, ronaldo, tevez, scholes, anderson... catch my drift!!

you are very right tho and i watched that match on rte and gilesy was correct in what he was sayin if we had begun the match with the attacking desire with which we ended it we would have won comfortably!

i think we're better away from home this year than i've ever seen us (basing this on group games) because we were a little more adventurous than usual!!
 

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Discussion Starter #11
eoininho said:
we've to deal with two players, they've to deal with: rooney, ronaldo, tevez, scholes, anderson... catch my drift!!

you are very right tho and i watched that match on rte and gilesy was correct in what he was sayin if we had begun the match with the attacking desire with which we ended it we would have won comfortably!

i think we're better away from home this year than i've ever seen us (basing this on group games) because we were a little more adventurous than usual!!
Yes, if we play well, we should win.

But how many times have we played teams off the pitch and lost.

e.g Man City away at the start of the season, we dominated for 90 minutes but couldn't score and they scored with their only chance of the game.

West Ham 95, we missed every chance, we dominated the game but we, or rather Andy Cole, just couldn't score.

I just hope we can take our chances at OT and things go right for us and that we give ourselves a chance by attacking them and making our own luck, because if we sit back like we did in Lyon, I assure you we will not progress.


Hopefully Fergie will send the players out with the same attitude they displayed against Arsenal and Newcastle.

jonny68 said:
I think that in midfield and our strikers is where our strengths lie, im still a little suspect about our defence.
I think, in the big matches this season, our defence, especially Rio and Vidic have been superb.

However, mostly against the lower teams and when we sit back, e.g. like against Lyon last week, Rio especially tends to lose concentration.

When he is hyped up he gets in the way of everything and dominates strikers, .e.g Torres, but perhaps if he was fired up against Lyon, he would have thrown himself in front of Benzemas shot instead of turning his back and making a somewhat half hearted effort to block the shot, and relying on Van Der Sar to save it.
 
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jonny68 said:
I think that in midfield and our strikers is where our strengths lie, im still a little suspect about our defence.
Best defence in the league and you are "suspect" about it? :confused:
 

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Wow, bitch!! Terrific thread you started. Guess turning Sweet 17 has indeed turned you on as serious football pundit.;)
I totally agree with you, not just for personal reason as aforementioned. It is the same old topic we are wary/weary about but refuse/dare not discuss to great lengths.

Giles was spot on. Everybody knows we have the class but we do often lack ambition, especially against lesser teams. Strange, most disturbing but indeed a true phenomenon. Something is terribly sick with our mentality, psychology or perhaps culture in the modern era. How else can we explain the embarrassment of losing to the rock-bottom teams, and I do mean the last team as seen from the league table, like Sunderland and Wolves in previous campaigns?!? Or how to explain the see-saw outcomes of beating the top teams and then being done a Double by Citeh and the Hammers (in this case, twice in 2 successive campaigns, OMG)? I don't know about the results in older days, say in Busby Babes' era. Maybe the more senior fans here can enlighten us whether such circus-like, farcical football outcomes were possible.

That was for local competition. What about in Europe? Though not so dramatic as above, obviously due to a higher standard of football generally, we had come up short in many instances when we were expected to win eg losing to Celtic at home or crumbled inexplicably when we were expected to be at least pumped up for the occassion eg clobbered Roma but lost meekly to Milan in the all-important Semi thereafter. Where have we gone wrong again?

One plausible reason could be the cautious and play-safe tactics employed by us, as K4T highlighted, which often then back-fired full blast on our red faces. Anyhow, what do we often do in away games? Oh, play with a slower tempo, play measured, put in Scholes and Giggs for their experience and composure, containment is the name of the game, of course. And if we are scored unexpectedly like against Lyon, we then scramble to change the tactics. Take out Scholes and Giggs, increase the tempo, attack and attack now, go for it, we need to score, guys... My point lies herein: Why can't we take the game to them from the onset? Why must we only take the game to our opponents when we are behind? Why go full circle? Think the famous victory against Juventus away in 1999 en-route to our Treble. We needed a result, attacked from the start but were still 2 goals down. We attacked and attacked again, even more ferociously and were richly rewarded a narrow 2-3 victory. An emotional result that brought proud tears to our eyes...

I always maintain that sitting back to contain and absorb, to maintain a slender lead or with a draw as an objective only, is highly dangerous and a poor mindset to begin with. We are not just unwittingly increasing our opponents' confidence to have a go at us but merely waiting for 'accidents' to happen and accidents do happen, and it did, against the run of play in Lyon. And we also threw away many precious victories and progresses by some late equalisers or winners we suffered and duly paid the price in Europe in previous campaigns. I mean, how could our opponents have scored if the ball is kept largely in their own half instead? And afterall, we are Manchester United, a team to be feared and revered. For our traditions and fame as an attacking team with flair and fearsome tempo, think it is just too negative and suicidal to do otherwise. I would much prefer we see, we come, we conquer; just subdue, overrun and clobber. Better for others to fear us than us fearing ourselves. Half the battle won; at least psychologically.

And as K4T pointed out too, it is also an embarrassment and injustice to our hardcore travelling fans who often out-sang home crowd and who spent much time and money to travel with the team. It is like telling them please travel with us, help us and support us vociferously.... but for a draw?

We always like to reckon that if we could contain our opponents with at least a draw away, everything will be hunkie dorie at home and we can then finish the business in style, no problem. Really? I beg to differ. Enough home boo-boos we had already so I would just leave it as such.

Until something more fundamental is being done, we, the United fans, will always remain an insecure lot. Always wondering which side of the team will turn up on match days and whether we are indeed going for a victory or just merely trying not to lose. Lol... but softly and sadly.
 

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Keano4taoiseach said:
Johnny Giles, an Irish football pundit, summed the match up perfectly when he said,

Lyon had the ambition to win the match but not the class, United had the class but not the ambition.

United went out and sat on their arses, Hargreaves (we might aswell have had Ivan Campo playing), and asking Paul Scholes, one of the most talented and creative midfielders the world has ever seen to play in a team with those tactics was a joke and an embarrassment to him. No movement from our players, no passion, no sign of the desire that we saw from the lads against Arsenal on Saturday.

Fergie sent out a 4-5-3 formation
with the intention of preventing Lyon from scoring and just waiting for us to nip a goal or for Ronaldo or Rooney to do something special. In my opinion, against a team of Lyon's calibre or in fact any team, that is an embarrassment to the club and the competition.

I believe that the football should come before the result, especially in the case of United, who always play their best football when closing teams down and playing attacking football that has been the trademark of our illustrious club for decades.

Why didn't Fergie send out his team with the kind of passion and attacking football they displayed against Arsenal at the weekend, why did the team sit back and play square passes and constantly give the ball away until Lyon deservedly scored, and only then show some ambition to win the game.

I honestly believe we could have finished off the tie in Lyon on Wednesday night had it not been for Fergie and his, all I can think of is, "Benitez-style" tactics.

Our football and desire was an embarrassment to the fans who travelled to the match, to our traditional way of playing football and to the CL.

Afterall, we don't have the divine right to win at OT, why the hell were we playing for a draw?? It just amazes me. Where was the passion, where was the willingness to show even some ambition of winning the game, where was the team that chased and harried a terrified Arsenal team on Saturday.

Attack Europe Fergie, because you'll regret it if you don't, and if we have any more performances or display any more tactics like those that we did against Lyon on Wednesday night, we will be in for a big shock when we come up against some real competition.
wow !!! with that formation we should have won comfortably - having 12 players on the field and all :p
 

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Keano4taoiseach said:
Yes, if we play well, we should win.

But how many times have we played teams off the pitch and lost.

e.g Man City away at the start of the season, we dominated for 90 minutes but couldn't score and they scored with their only chance of the game.

West Ham 95, we missed every chance, we dominated the game but we, or rather Andy Cole, just couldn't score.
results like that happen in football thats why its such a good game! that fa cup final against arsenal was another eg..

Lyon need to attack at old trafford and you've seen what we can do to teams on the break i'm very confident we'll win very comfortably! 2 or 3 goals at least!
 

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I think Queiroz has had an impact on our formation away from home in Europe. He seemed to introduce the idea of a 4-5-1 formation...although that's the same formation we played against Arsenal when we beat them 4-0 so I'm not surprised we stuck with it in Lyon!

We're still unbeaten in the Champions League this season and I thought Lyon scored against the run of play. We were controlling the game until that point and I can't see anything other than a win for us at OT.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
reddwarf and eioninho: I'm not really talking about formations but on style of play and attitudes in the game.

Granted we may have played 4-5-1 against Arsenal in the FA Cup and won 4-0 and played in Lyon with the same formation but lost.

However it is the desire and attitude of the players against Arsenal which won us the game, not the formation!!!

Against Lyon we sat back like it was a training session and stroked the ball across the back like a League 2 side!!!

p.s. versa, great post, I'm at lunch so will reply later or tomorrow.......
 

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You have to be careful in Europe. You cant go out all guns blazing. We have done that in the past and got caught out. When we are away from home we do need to score. An away goal is so important .
 

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Discussion Starter #20
donthered said:
You have to be careful in Europe. You cant go out all guns blazing. We have done that in the past and got caught out. When we are away from home we do need to score. An away goal is so important .
Yes I understand that but the way the team are playing and the victory over Arsenal would have been a great incentive for the players to record another emphatic victory.

And in fairness, Lyon aren't a top class side. We should be capable of beating them anywhere.

Also, I do believe that we are at our best when we pressurise teams from the start and play an extra yard or gear ahead of them, like we did to Arsenal in the FA Cup and against Roma last season.
 
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