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Discussion Starter #1
It would be easy for those of us who don't agree with all of fergie's tactics to keep quiet right now after the wins against Barca and WH , but as I have said before , it's not about the results.

Right now we have won NOTHING , absolutely nothing at all and these two games were at OT. The honours will be dished out on the basis of what United do away from OT. You may laugh at me , but despite all the singing at OT and Fergies smiles I still think they are quite capable of blundering it all away by not being true to the very football that has brought them this far. Chelsea have a better away record than us and grind and fight like dogs to get results. We seem to want to leave it to the last 10 minutes of games when it gets desperate before we create chance after chance and score. This could easily have happened against Barca and could easily happen against Wigan if we try and play them on the break and sit back.

Last week against Chelsea , Anderson came off after a period when United were really coming into the game . So instead of driving at them and putting crosses into their box it was our box that came under pressure and it was Carrick who handballed when it could have been Essien. United would now be celebrating the Title. :rolleyes:

So , will everyone stop their "we win everything's fine , we lose then it's disaster" philosophy and look at what's really happening. It's been a long time since this team really did itself justice away from OT. Why? Because we have become passive impersonaters of negative teams that don't have our talent.

Ok , let's have the flak now!!!...........:eek:
 

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I agree.

At times this seaon we have tried to play like Chelsea, e.g. against Chelsea last saturday, and it has been non-effective and only put extra pressure on the team.

Chelsea are programmed to defend and play defensive midfielders etc. It's not the United way.

Ferguson made one of the worst decisions of his career last saturday.

We went out and sat on our back-sides until they scored, then we attacked and forced them to concede, then we sit back again and eventually lost the match.

Against Chelsea, whenever we were behind, we were dominating the game :eek:

It was depressing to watch then as we resorted back to defending and showing know ambition when we equalised. That match was ours for the taking!!!!

Having said all of that, Fergie has gotten us to the CL final and one game away from retaining the League.

So, Trust in him not to make another ridiculous error. He is the master afterall. :)
 

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Well, if United win the double, then I guess Fergies decision of playing a slighlt weakened side against Chelsea was the right one.

I was slightly worried, but after the Barca and West Ham games I'm not anymore.

We are in the perfect position in the League at the moment, hoping that Chelsea will slip up against Newcastle but even if they don't, we are WELL capable of beating Wigan, no matter how hard it will be.

And then we have a 10 day break before the CL final, so the players will have plenty of time to rest up.

If we win the League, but don't win the CL, one excuse we can't make is tiredness.
 

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sorry but if after the quality footie we have played all year we limp over the line in both i will be most chuffed l
 

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Discussion Starter #5
haggler said:
sorry but if after the quality footie we have played all year we limp over the line in both i will be most chuffed l
But limping over the line is risky isn't it. Why limp when you can run?
 

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I agree to a certain extent, but once again, we played with quite a cavalier style last season and simply ran out of steam towards the end.

Fergie is not infaliable and has made mistakes in the past.

It's an interesting question, because in the past whenever we've not been true to ourselves we have been punished.

However, I still choose to trust Fergie, because he's got it right more often than not.

If we get it wrong in the last two games we will end the season empty-handed.

Then again, second in the league and finalist in the champions league ain't bad ey?

Seeing as our squad has a lot of youngsters.

Right now I'm more worried what I will do to Alan Wiley and that SOB of a linesman who gave that penalty against Carrick in the game against Chelsea. It hit his hand, but it was not a penalty.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
RedForceRising said:
I agree to a certain extent, but once again, we played with quite a cavalier style last season and simply ran out of steam towards the end.

Fergie is not infaliable and has made mistakes in the past.

It's an interesting question, because in the past whenever we've not been true to ourselves we have been punished.

However, I still choose to trust Fergie, because he's got it right more often than not.

If we get it wrong in the last two games we will end the season empty-handed.

Then again, second in the league and finalist in the champions league ain't bad ey?

Seeing as our squad has a lot of youngsters.

Right now I'm more worried what I will do to Alan Wiley and that SOB of a linesman who gave that penalty against Carrick in the game against Chelsea. It hit his hand, but it was not a penalty.
I agree to a certain extent, but once again, we played with quite a cavalier style last season and simply ran out of steam towards the end.

...........I don't know about that , we won the league much more comfortably last season than it will be this season and it was the injuries in defence that cost us in the CL.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
manutd004 said:
Limping over the line is better than crashing.
You make the big mistake of thinking that playing negative is risk free and playing more aggressively is full of risks. Both have risks. I actually think there is more chance of us "crashing" if we give ground to teams and forget to pressurise the ball and allow balls to be slung/passed into our box. The way we slowly went into our shell trying to protect what we had (v chelsea) all lead up to the carrick penalty. The carrick penalty is evidence of the risks of sitting back and protecting what you have.

I would like to know what you mean by "crashing"? What is "crashing"? Where is the evidence that United have suffered this season (or any season) by playing positively and not sitting back? If you think that I (and those that think like me) believe United should go "gun ho" and be cavalier then trust me , we are not that naive. I see many teams pressing the ball and attacking who do really well with only half our talent and it's not cavalier it's just smart play.

If you give good teams time and space and possession they will normally hurt you. Barca had no cutting edge , Chelsea do. Some great coaches and teams have closed down opponents in midfield and tried to get possession of the ball and attack with great success. Look at how Italy came out of their shell in WC 2006.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
manutd004 said:
Where have all the optimists gone? :rolleyes:
I am the optimist , you are the pessimist. I believe United are better than Chelsea and in a toe - to -toe full on battle we will score more than them playing our brand of football . I am the optimist because I believe that United can impose their style and their football on a team as good as chelsea. You are pessimist because you seem to believe that we need to impersonate chelsea to win things and that United are not as good as I think they are.

I see no reason to allow any team to dictate to us how we should play . I think we should be b****ing well making other teams worry about us not vice versa . why? Because I am the optimist and I believe , you do not seem to. So why paint yourself as the optimist. The way we played against arsenal in the FA cup should be the way we play the next two games. If we do that we will have a much better chance than impersonating chelsea. So I ask you the same question , where have all the optimists gone?
 

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desmondo said:
You make the big mistake of thinking that playing negative is risk free and playing more aggressively is full of risks. Both have risks. I actually think there is more chance of us "crashing" if we give ground to teams and forget to pressurise the ball and allow balls to be slung/passed into our box. The way we slowly went into our shell trying to protect what we had (v chelsea) all lead up to the carrick penalty. The carrick penalty is evidence of the risks of sitting back and protecting what you have.

I would like to know what you mean by "crashing"? What is "crashing"? Where is the evidence that United have suffered this season (or any season) by playing positively and not sitting back? If you think that I (and those that think like me) believe United should go "gun ho" and be cavalier then trust me , we are not that naive. I see many teams pressing the ball and attacking who do really well with only half our talent and it's not cavalier it's just smart play.

If you give good teams time and space and possession they will normally hurt you. Barca had no cutting edge , Chelsea do. Some great coaches and teams have closed down opponents in midfield and tried to get possession of the ball and attack with great success. Look at how Italy came out of their shell in WC 2006.
I never said that.

But you see, I would rather wait until the end of the season and judge Sir Alex's decisions then, and not with two games to go when we've still got the chance to win 2 trophies.

You were one of the people stating that the way United played in the first leg of the semi-final against Barca. We won the tie. So that means Sir Alex was right.

If United win the double, will you admit that Sir Alex's decisions were right all along?

desmondo said:
I am the optimist , you are the pessimist. I believe United are better than Chelsea and in a toe - to -toe full on battle we will score more than them playing our brand of football . I am the optimist because I believe that United can impose their style and their football on a team as good as chelsea. You are pessimist because you seem to believe that we need to impersonate chelsea to win things and that United are not as good as I think they are.

I see no reason to allow any team to dictate to us how we should play . I think we should be b****ing well making other teams worry about us not vice versa . why? Because I am the optimist and I believe , you do not seem to. So why paint yourself as the optimist. The way we played against arsenal in the FA cup should be the way we play the next two games. If we do that we will have a much better chance than impersonating chelsea. So I ask you the same question , where have all the optimists gone?
I never said anything about the way we played. I also believe we are good enough to beat Chelsea (as I said in another thread.) And I have admitted in other threads their were mistakes made against Chelsea.

I just said that I would rather limp along, than crashing.

And if you saw my post after the Chelsea game, you would see that I said Sir Alex's decision to take off Anderson was wrong.

We won 4-1 today. Is that not attacking enough for you?
 

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Discussion Starter #14
RedForceRising said:
I agree to a certain extent, but once again, we played with quite a cavalier style last season and simply ran out of steam towards the end.

Fergie is not infaliable and has made mistakes in the past.

It's an interesting question, because in the past whenever we've not been true to ourselves we have been punished.

However, I still choose to trust Fergie, because he's got it right more often than not.

If we get it wrong in the last two games we will end the season empty-handed.

Then again, second in the league and finalist in the champions league ain't bad ey?

Seeing as our squad has a lot of youngsters.

Right now I'm more worried what I will do to Alan Wiley and that SOB of a linesman who gave that penalty against Carrick in the game against Chelsea. It hit his hand, but it was not a penalty.
Right now I'm more worried what I will do to Alan Wiley and that SOB of a linesman who gave that penalty against Carrick in the game against Chelsea. It hit his hand, but it was not a penalty.

........But don't you see? We gave the initiative back to chelsea once we had got the goal and let them come on to us. We only have ourselves to blame. We'd be celebrating the title already if fergie had been a bit braver and the players had believed a bit more. Refs and linesmen give decisions like that , it's the risk you run if you allow teams to take the initiative. I watched the first chelsea goal again today , and if you look at it you will see that Drogba gets way too much time to cross the ball to Ballack. What was that about ? Why defend a header in your own box when you can defend against the cross? All it would have taken is for us to put more pressure on the ball , but the players seemd content to just watch chelsea play.
 

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desmondo said:
It would be easy for those of us who don't agree with all of fergie's tactics to keep quiet right now after the wins against Barca and WH , but as I have said before , it's not about the results. :
it is at the minute. i could handle two **** performances if it meant taking home the prem title and CL
 

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Discussion Starter #17
manutd004 said:
I never said that.

But you see, I would rather wait until the end of the season and judge Sir Alex's decisions then, and not with two games to go when we've still got the chance to win 2 trophies.

You were one of the people stating that the way United played in the first leg of the semi-final against Barca. We won the tie. So that means Sir Alex was right.

If United win the double, will you admit that Sir Alex's decisions were right all along?



I never said anything about the way we played. I also believe we are good enough to beat Chelsea (as I said in another thread.) And I have admitted in other threads their were mistakes made against Chelsea.

I just said that I would rather limp along, than crashing.

And if you saw my post after the Chelsea game, you would see that I said Sir Alex's decision to take off Anderson was wrong.

We won 4-1 today. Is that not attacking enough for you?
We won the tie. So that means Sir Alex was right.

If United win the double, will you admit that Sir Alex's decisions were right all along?


......why is it always about results? Teams can win things despite poor tactics as well as because of them. We won that tie by a whisker , one deflected shot in our box and goodnight moscow , against a team that was very low on confidence and on it's way out. I personally think that the Barca game could easily have been more comfortable and we showed them too much respect. I actually thought that roma were a better team.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
manutd004 said:
I never said that.

But you see, I would rather wait until the end of the season and judge Sir Alex's decisions then, and not with two games to go when we've still got the chance to win 2 trophies.

You were one of the people stating that the way United played in the first leg of the semi-final against Barca. We won the tie. So that means Sir Alex was right.

If United win the double, will you admit that Sir Alex's decisions were right all along?



I never said anything about the way we played. I also believe we are good enough to beat Chelsea (as I said in another thread.) And I have admitted in other threads their were mistakes made against Chelsea.

I just said that I would rather limp along, than crashing.

And if you saw my post after the Chelsea game, you would see that I said Sir Alex's decision to take off Anderson was wrong.

We won 4-1 today. Is that not attacking enough for you?
Maybe my optimists rant was misplaced if you thought that bringing on O shea was a poor decision.
 

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desmondo said:
We won the tie. So that means Sir Alex was right.

If United win the double, will you admit that Sir Alex's decisions were right all along?


......why is it always about results? Teams can win things despite poor tactics as well as because of them. We won that tie by a whisker , one deflected shot in our box and goodnight moscow , against a team that was very low on confidence and on it's way out. I personally think that the Barca game could easily have been more comfortable and we showed them too much respect. I actually thought that roma were a better team.
Results bring silverware.

I too want to win in style. But winning the games left with poor performances won't mean we haven't won it in style.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
antdevil78 said:
it is at the minute. i could handle two **** performances if it meant taking home the prem title and CL
So could I ...but that's hardly the point is it? The question we should ask ourselves is which kind of performances will give the best chance of good results. If you look at the season overall the evidence is there. I personally would be quite happy to see United play two of the most boring games ever if I thought that it was their best chance of winning the double , but then I look at the players we have and I find myself thinking that a negative approach is not our best chance. Do not think that I am not interested in results , I'm barmy about winning that's why I want us to be playing in our opponents half rather than taking photos of the other team and putting in last ditch tackles in our own box. My God man , don't you get all twitchy when United start playing like Sven's England?

manutd004 said:
Results bring silverware.

I too want to win in style. But winning the games left with poor performances won't mean we haven't won it in style.
....it's not about style it's about effectiveness. United are a far more effective team when they come out of their shell and contest possession and take the initiative in a game at a higher tempo. I'm not that interested in pretty football. Barcelona are a joke of a team to have that much possession and not score. Pretty triangles but crap. The same reason why arsenal faded away.

This team are set up to attack and pass the ball fluidly and quickly and put other teams (any team) under pressure. We are just soooooooo much better and effective when we do that. Attack really is the best form of defence.
 
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