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It happened again didn't it. Get the lead (like at Liverpool) and then lose our way through lack of self belief. We allowed Chelski to slowly come more and more into the game and stood off them. It wasn't quite as bad as at Anfield but it was still as if we just thought 1-0 was going to be enough.

After striking an early blow to the hearts of our opponents in the last two games we seemed intent on inviting them back into the game as if it's Xmas or something. This is no Fergie bash because he's saying the same thing. Would it have been such an awful thing to go 2-0 up at the Bridge?

Great Champions have no respect for records or who they are playing against. They have huge self belief. This team doesn't quite have it yet. We play much better at 0-0 than 1-0 up at the moment. Why work so hard to get the lead only to sit back and let it drift away from you?

I think we would have had more points from both games if we had pushed on at
1-0 , anyone agree?
 

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desmondo said:
It happened again didn't it. Get the lead (like at Liverpool) and then lose our way through lack of self belief. We allowed Chelski to slowly come more and more into the game and stood off them. It wasn't quite as bad as at Anfield but it was still as if we just thought 1-0 was going to be enough.

After striking an early blow to the hearts of our opponents in the last two games we seemed intent on inviting them back into the game as if it's Xmas or something. This is no Fergie bash because he's saying the same thing. Would it have been such an awful thing to go 2-0 up at the Bridge?

Great Champions have no respect for records or who they are playing against. They have huge self belief. This team doesn't quite have it yet. We play much better at 0-0 than 1-0 up at the moment. Why work so hard to get the lead only to sit back and let it drift away from you?

I think we would have had more points from both games if we had pushed on at
1-0 , anyone agree?
i agree totally
 

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desmondo said:
It happened again didn't it. Get the lead (like at Liverpool) and then lose our way through lack of self belief. We allowed Chelski to slowly come more and more into the game and stood off them. It wasn't quite as bad as at Anfield but it was still as if we just thought 1-0 was going to be enough.

After striking an early blow to the hearts of our opponents in the last two games we seemed intent on inviting them back into the game as if it's Xmas or something. This is no Fergie bash because he's saying the same thing. Would it have been such an awful thing to go 2-0 up at the Bridge?

Great Champions have no respect for records or who they are playing against. They have huge self belief. This team doesn't quite have it yet. We play much better at 0-0 than 1-0 up at the moment. Why work so hard to get the lead only to sit back and let it drift away from you?

I think we would have had more points from both games if we had pushed on at
1-0 , anyone agree?
I also agree totally. I mentioned in another thread about protecting a lead that
when we stop playing attacking football and try to defend leads it always
backfires. I think Anderson should have been brought on instead of O'Shea and
we could of kept the same shape and i think Tevez should of been put in to keep
the presure up right from the front and maybe could of added another.
 

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I agree totally.

It was not 1 point gained but 3 points lost (2 for us and 1 as gift to them). It seems this mentality of 'going easy' after taking a lead is hurting us and will continue to hurt us. For the umpteenth times, accidents can happen and will happen against us if the ball is almost perpetually in our half. Simple probability, logic and common sense.
 

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totally. it happens time and time again. we are england and european champions for crying out loud!! and we are playing the opponent which came second to us in both competition!
 

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desmondo said:
It happened again didn't it. Get the lead (like at Liverpool) and then lose our way through lack of self belief. We allowed Chelski to slowly come more and more into the game and stood off them. It wasn't quite as bad as at Anfield but it was still as if we just thought 1-0 was going to be enough.

After striking an early blow to the hearts of our opponents in the last two games we seemed intent on inviting them back into the game as if it's Xmas or something. This is no Fergie bash because he's saying the same thing. Would it have been such an awful thing to go 2-0 up at the Bridge?

Great Champions have no respect for records or who they are playing against. They have huge self belief. This team doesn't quite have it yet. We play much better at 0-0 than 1-0 up at the moment. Why work so hard to get the lead only to sit back and let it drift away from you?

I think we would have had more points from both games if we had pushed on at
1-0 , anyone agree?
I expected a thread from you after yesterdays result! :p

But I agree with you totally. I don't know why we continually sit back like yesterday.

There are certainly similarites between last years game. O'Shea comes on to try to hold onto lead, we invite Chelsea onto us, they score, and we lose the lead. And in all honesty, it could have been worse had Anelka scored that chance.

Tevez should have came on (for Berbatov) instead of O'Shea to add some energy, and more of an attacking threat.

I don't know how many times its got to happen before we learn, and saying "A points a good result" is an insult imho.
 

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we have been doing this for over 2 seasons ,getting a lead then sitting back and inviting sides to take advantage.the great teams from the 90's would finish the opponents off then play fancy football , utd have lost their way in killing teams and we need to find it again its so much easier for the players when they can coast at the end of games.
 

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sweet fa said:
we have been doing this for over 2 seasons ,getting a lead then sitting back and inviting sides to take advantage.the great teams from the 90's would finish the opponents off then play fancy football , utd have lost their way in killing teams and we need to find it again its so much easier for the players when they can coast at the end of games.
Yes, I finally found it. Thanks. Think we all really missed that for too long now to remember what it was like to have such consistency and authority.
 

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desmondo said:
It happened again didn't it. Get the lead (like at Liverpool) and then lose our way through lack of self belief. We allowed Chelski to slowly come more and more into the game and stood off them. It wasn't quite as bad as at Anfield but it was still as if we just thought 1-0 was going to be enough.

After striking an early blow to the hearts of our opponents in the last two games we seemed intent on inviting them back into the game as if it's Xmas or something. This is no Fergie bash because he's saying the same thing. Would it have been such an awful thing to go 2-0 up at the Bridge?

Great Champions have no respect for records or who they are playing against. They have huge self belief. This team doesn't quite have it yet. We play much better at 0-0 than 1-0 up at the moment. Why work so hard to get the lead only to sit back and let it drift away from you?

I think we would have had more points from both games if we had pushed on at
1-0 , anyone agree?
You make a good point Des and in these cases you pointed out it made the difference.
I agree with you to a certain extent but also think that Fergie was playing the
percentages and it didnt work out.
We do have to bear in mind that these games were both away in tough stadiums.

I was crying out for Fergie to bring Tevez on so we could at least defend from the front,
and apply some decent pressure to their defenders and midfield but it never happened.

Once Ronaldo came on for Park we looked more vunerable at the back and the
Chelsea came at us.
but wouldnt this be a contradiction to what you were suggesting in your opening post Des?

Surely Ronaldo coming on for Park was a positive move and Fergie was trying to
get that all important second goal? Its not as if we didnt have some chances right?
We were far better in this game than we were against the Scousers, thats for sure.

The Ronaldo sub was far more positive than O'Shea coming on.....which could be
seen as too negative,
but Chelsea were applying the pressure and it looked like something was going
to give way.
if we had gone with Anderson instead of O'Shea would it have made a difference?
None of us could really answer that tbh.

I see what you are saying Des but there are 2 sides to every coin.
Either way, cheers for another good thread, which we can sink our teeth into.
 

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sweet fa said:
we have been doing this for over 2 seasons ,getting a lead then sitting back and inviting sides to take advantage.the great teams from the 90's would finish the opponents off then play fancy football , utd have lost their way in killing teams and we need to find it again its so much easier for the players when they can coast at the end of games.
You do make an interesting point about the team from the 90's and their
ruthless ability to kill teams off. I put this down to the amount of character's
in the team during this time. Players with the insatiable burning desire to win
at all costs, and win well.

That said, I want to concentrate on your first point, which I have highlighted:
You say that we havent been killing teams off for the last 2 seasons? :confused:
Sorry but havent we won back to back Premierships and a European cup in the
last 2 years? To be critical of a team that has achieved all that is slightly
nit picky right?

Ok, maybe they arent the team of the 90's but they are damn close to them.
and for the record we have killed off heaps of teams in the last 2 years, and thats
how we have won so many trophies.

can you see where Im coming from here?
 

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I think the main reason for this problem is that in central midfield we are light weight, we need a strong tough tackling defensive midfielder to help us control midfield better. The problem with having two shadow strikers in the squad, Rooney and Tevez, is that it means you can't play a 4-3-3 formation which most of the top teams are playing. If you think im speaking nonsense then look at the examples, Barcelona Chelsea Liverpool and even Roma have all dominated the midfield against us and had most of the possesion.
 

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Jazz 16 said:
You do make an interesting point about the team from the 90's and their
ruthless ability to kill teams off. I put this down to the amount of character's
in the team during this time. Players with the insatiable burning desire to win
at all costs, and win well.

That said, I want to concentrate on your first point, which I have highlighted:
You say that we havent been killing teams off for the last 2 seasons? :confused:
Sorry but havent we won back to back Premierships and a European cup in the
last 2 years? To be critical of a team that has achieved all that is slightly
nit picky right?

Ok, maybe they arent the team of the 90's but they are damn close to them.
and for the record we have killed off heaps of teams in the last 2 years, and thats
how we have won so many trophies.

can you see where Im coming from here?

yes i see where your coming from and am delighted that utd are winning the trophies its a massive part of our lives and i hope it continues for many seasons but in the 90's we would win it with 2 or 3 games remaining , now we are falling over the line the earlier teams where strong in midfield and all players were scoring on a regular basis our current team is all about ronaldo {who is looking at moving away from here} take away ronaldo and utd are in trouble and thats a fact we all know is true.
we must find that killer touch and midfield is the area that needs to chip in with more goals from all players, we seem to be trying to play pretty football we need pretty effective .the difference is goals, our strikers must stay up front and the midfield push on instead of the midfield sticking and striker coming back for the ball ,the goals will flow when this happens and utd will then be back in fantasy land.
 

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sweet fa said:
yes i see where your coming from and am delighted that utd are winning the trophies its a massive part of our lives and i hope it continues for many seasons but in the 90's we would win it with 2 or 3 games remaining , now we are falling over the line the earlier teams where strong in midfield and all players were scoring on a regular basis our current team is all about ronaldo {who is looking at moving away from here} take away ronaldo and utd are in trouble and thats a fact we all know is true.
we must find that killer touch and midfield is the area that needs to chip in with more goals from all players, we seem to be trying to play pretty football we need pretty effective .the difference is goals, our strikers must stay up front and the midfield push on instead of the midfield sticking and striker coming back for the ball ,the goals will flow when this happens and utd will then be back in fantasy land.
We must also remember that the standard of the PL is much higher these days.
There were loads of crap teams back in the 90's when we were dominating,
so making comparisons between these 2 teams in 2 different era's is very hard.
I do think the goals will start to flow soon and we will start dismantling teams with ease.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Jazz 16 said:
You make a good point Des and in these cases you pointed out it made the difference.
I agree with you to a certain extent but also think that Fergie was playing the
percentages and it didnt work out.
We do have to bear in mind that these games were both away in tough stadiums.

I was crying out for Fergie to bring Tevez on so we could at least defend from the front,
and apply some decent pressure to their defenders and midfield but it never happened.

Once Ronaldo came on for Park we looked more vunerable at the back and the
Chelsea came at us.
but wouldnt this be a contradiction to what you were suggesting in your opening post Des?

Surely Ronaldo coming on for Park was a positive move and Fergie was trying to
get that all important second goal? Its not as if we didnt have some chances right?
We were far better in this game than we were against the Scousers, thats for sure.

The Ronaldo sub was far more positive than O'Shea coming on.....which could be
seen as too negative,
but Chelsea were applying the pressure and it looked like something was going
to give way.
if we had gone with Anderson instead of O'Shea would it have made a difference?
None of us could really answer that tbh.

I see what you are saying Des but there are 2 sides to every coin.
Either way, cheers for another good thread, which we can sink our teeth into.
I think the idea behind ronaldo was to catch them on the break with pace but it wasn't a positive thing neccessarily. My feeling is that if we had carried on doing what we were doing at 0-0 AFTER we scored then things would have been Ok. We have the class to dominate even Chelsea , but we don't seem to have the self belief to take it on once we had scored.

It's a very Italian thing to do and my take on it is that it's all a rub off from playing in Europe. The European thing to do is to get a lead away and sit on it and catch the other team on the break. My problem is that we just don't seem to do it very well at all because we just don't look comfortable and the teams we do it against seem to relish the invitation we are offering to them on a plate.

So help me out here. We can see what's happening , so why does it keep happening? Isn't there someone in the dressing room saying this and questioning it? I'm more confused than anything . I can't believe that it's not been spotted by anyone because there is so much footy knowledge around (even without fergie) . So that leaves only two possible alternatives

a) They can see that this is happening but don't know how to stop it or get the players to do something different

b) They can see what's happening and they don't want them to stop doing it.

An obvious half time team talk would have been "now come on , we were doing well at 0-0 but then when we scored we sat on it , push on for that second goal , be brave and positive , let's get back to that first 20 minutes play " .

So , if it was given then why did the players do the opposite? If it was not given then why not?

The hugely frustrating irony for me was that at 0-0 in the first 20 minutes I thought our goal looked more secure than after we sat back. It's as if trying to defend the lead actually makes us more fragile. I was almost more nervous at 1-0 than 0-0 . One also has to take into account the effect it has on the opposition. If you are Frank Lampard and you see United backing off it's an opportunity to seize the game and take control which is just what you want at 0-1 down. Chelsea had obviously sat down at the break and said " they're going to sit back deep and play on the counter so just be patient and the goal will come , there's only so much pressure they can absorb"

So is this a no-brainer? I thought the hall mark of fergie teams was bravery. This is a man who said "to win the league you have to try to win matches" . I'm not bashing because it seems he is recognising it , my confusion lies in that I can't figure out what is being done to change it. Watch out for the next big away game..........
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Jazz 16 said:
We must also remember that the standard of the PL is much higher these days.
There were loads of crap teams back in the 90's when we were dominating,
so making comparisons between these 2 teams in 2 different era's is very hard.
I do think the goals will start to flow soon and we will start dismantling teams with ease.
I agree. The PL was won in the 90's sometimes with a very low point tally. However , the top teams were still evenly matched and it was when we played those teams that we seemed braver. This current team seems more skillful but less brave. The 90's team went for the throat more and pressed home it's advantage if it was on top. This team seems to lack a killer instinct . We let our opponents get back up off the floor too often.
 

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I was more nervous when the team was leading 1-0 than when the score was 0-0 too.

Part of the reason might be that it has paid off recently and that the players were getting complacent. Even when we won 3-0 against Liverpool last season, we actually sat back after Brown opened the scoring.

My gut feeling is that the players have developed this grove and it starts from the back. Rio has to take the lead and pass it to the midfielders instead of hoofing it and the other defenders will hopefully follow his lead.

In addition, I have to say that Scholes is not the midfielder he once was. I really think we need Anderson and his youthful legs to come back deep enough to collect the ball from the defenders.

I'm saying it now and you can all slate me, if I'm wrong, but have a strong feeling that the moment Anderson can partner Hargreaves or Carrick in midfield and Scholes is omitted we will see more flowing football and more possession in midfield. Anderson is good at keeping the ball under pressure and seldom gets hustled off the ball and Carrick's distribution is priceless.
 

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RedForceRising said:
In addition, I have to say that Scholes is not the midfielder he once was. I really think we need Anderson and his youthful legs to come back deep enough to collect the ball from the defenders.

I'm saying it now and you can all slate me, if I'm wrong, but have a strong feeling that the moment Anderson can partner Hargreaves or Carrick in midfield and Scholes is omitted we will see more flowing football and more possession in midfield. Anderson is good at keeping the ball under pressure and seldom gets hustled off the ball and Carrick's distribution is priceless.
I agree.

Last season, he had some fantastic games. But he also had some pretty dire games as well.

This season, he hasn't started of well at all, and I too think that playing Anderson is the way forward, and I think overall, Anderson will add more to our midfield with Carrick than Scholes.

And I also agree with you that I'm prepared to be slated if I'm proved wrong. :)
 

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desmondo said:
I agree. The PL was won in the 90's sometimes with a very low point tally. However , the top teams were still evenly matched and it was when we played those teams that we seemed braver. This current team seems more skillful but less brave. The 90's team went for the throat more and pressed home it's advantage if it was on top. This team seems to lack a killer instinct . We let our opponents get back up off the floor too often.
Well maybe thats the difference adn you hit the nail on the head.
If you think back to the early 90's all of our players were as brave as they come.
The likes of Robson, Keane, Bruce, Pally, Scmeichs, Irwin, Sparky, Ince
and Cantona were all leaders, brave as oxes, battle hardened and all capable
of being captain of Manchester United if asked. Maybe thats what we lack now?
The fearlessness away from home and the winning mentality that we can win
ANYWHERE be it the Nou Camp, Anfield.....wherever.

I remember your first thread on this forum could have been after the Barca game?
and then another for the Chelsea game.
At the time, I wasnt in agreement with you and I still stand by that now,
because they were different games that required a different approach
(which worked out ok in the end as we all know)

replying to your previous big post (the one above the one I quoted)..
I believe the players/management DO know whats going on, of course they do.
Im not sure if you play football yourself, bu when you have a lead in a tough game,
its very easy to start defending deeper and getting into protection mode.
Its instinctive at times. Maybe thats when Fergie should try and push them out
or make the 'perfect' sub (which is easier said than done)
but I do think the game was crying out for Tevez so we could defend from the
front and maybe catch them on the break with his great hold up/link up play
and Ronaldo's pace.
I guess we will never know but I for one am happy with the point.
Tbh I was always expecting Chelsea to score and later they left it the better it was
for us obviously.
Anelka missed a good chance (a sitter prety much) so it could have been a whole
lot worse. Anyways, I see what you are saying and agree to a certain extent.
cheers.
 
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