[TheManc]

Well, i sorta do know what I'm saying. There's been lots of talent come out of our academy, and before that from our youth prospecting and younger squads.
We've been a good "breeding" ground since the late 80s, and you can always tell which ones will blossom and which ones won't. If you go back and watch the games from his last season here, it's clear that he's gonna be an extraordinary player if he keeps his focus, and granted, you've given him that. We had a young lad here, named Dany, who could have been better than Figo, maybe almost as good as CR, and he blew it cuz of night life, booze and girls.

The only real plus you had for him at the time was that you'd just sold becks to RM, so he had a real shot at starting eleven, even at his age. However, i dissagree about him not beeing as good would he go somewhere else. Remember, he did last season, age 22/23, what most players do at age 27/28. That's generally regarded as the time players peak, mixing experience with strengh and vigour. He managed that, granted, due to his 5 years of PL experience, but to think that he wouldn't achieve this level at another club, i think, it's a bit deluded.

Of course this is all hypothetical, there could have been tons of variables to alter the outcome to whoo knows what realm, but I've seen this quite a lot, players like futre, figo, quaresma, simao, hugo viana, nani, dany, etc. After a bit, you get the feeling about who's gonna make it and who's not.
And granted, there's clubs more suited to bring out the best in players than others, but look, for example at 3 players that left Sporting for Barcelona, Figo, Simão and Quaresma.

Figo, i think, needs no description. he was clearly the driving force in Barça, and his "betrayal" to RM was a shock, but most Barça fans now admit he was right, and the club didn't extend his contract when they should, and they ultimately lost him.

Simão was lackluster at best, seldom played, and was sold to benfica on God knows what terms, and is now back in Spain, playing nicely, but in a club with no great ambitions. Maybe they can rise back, but i kinda doubt it. He´s in Atletico Madrid, btw.

Quaresma was also poorly used in Barça, even though he did some very nice things, but was ultimately involved in Barça's purchase of Deco from Porto. since then, he's been consistently Porto's top player, and now he joins Mourinho in Inter. Italy isn't England, football there isn't as espectacular, but i can hazard a guess that Quaresma will soon enough be among the world's best as well.

Like you said, expectations and reality are never quite the same, but, from my experience watching our young talents leave for almost 2 decades now, i have a fair opinion regarding their potential.

But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree in that if he had gone to say Milan, his training would have been different. For instance, Manutd are one of the few clubs who allow there young players to to express themsleves.

Ronaldo used to go around trying to take the world on, but we let him figure it out himself, whereas other teams would have straight away told him to 'cut it out'.

He has been able to express himself here more than he would have at any other club except Barcelona (expressive, attacking football is a must for both teams obviously).

We have also kept him on the straight and narrow, which is far easier said than done. Ronaldo is the perfect target for media hype/pressure.

We've seen first hand about how it can affect them. We had a player Lee Sharpe a while back who was similar to Giggs and came up at the same time. Who knows, at another club Ronaldo may have turned out be a Lee Sharpe instead of a Giggs.

You have no way of teeling if that guy is gonna be the best in the world. You can say "that guy is gonna be a decent player" or "He's got the potential to be world class" - but no one can say that an 18 year old is gonna end up the best in the world.

OT but Just wondering, having seen players like Figo, Quaresma, Ronaldo, Simao ect, whats your opinion on how far Nani can go?

 

[christianoharleiro]

Essay time!

Sorry to dissagree with you here, m8, but he always had the knowhow, and Sporting made him what he is. true, he plays in a more competitive league and with greater talent at his side, but make no mistake here.

I disagree there. I think Sporting turned Ronaldo into a kid with extrodinary potential - which is a great achievement, but Man Utd turned him from a kid with extrodinary potential into the worlds #1. If Sporting made him what he is now, then he wouldn't have had such an inconsistent first 3 years with us - we turned that inconsistent potential into consistent world beating.

So he showed a bit of arrogance after scoring, he did it all last year as well.

Of course he did, but he still celebrated wildly or atleast had a smile on his face.

Were they as ridiculous as saying Darren Fletcher is better than Owen Hargreaves?

lol, that was a shocker from scott-4-evra or w/e his name is.

He seem's to be going through the motions at this time

yeah, probably the best way to describe it.

i have never seen scholsey, giggs, ole, neville etc etc bringing personal problems onto the pitch. . . . no because they are proffessionals.

Exactly. Everyone will have personal problems sometime in their life, but you've got to get on with it, and do your job.

Sorry, you're wrong. And if you knew a bit better the story around his signing, you would agree with me.

If SAF didn't take him them, someone else would. His plan was to watch him for another year, but when he saw him play in our new stadium inaugural match, he knew. He said it himself, if they didn't buy him then, they'd risk loosing him to another team. Not to rain on your parade, but he'd have risen to the top where ever he'd be.

But to think that he wouldn't achieve this level at another club, i think, it's a bit deluded.

Sporting4Ever, you're just as deluded if you think he'd have risen to the top wherever he went. I agree that you can't say a young players gonna flop unless he goes to Man Utd. But take Quaresma and Simao for example, they were the next big thing, way more hyped than Ronaldo was - got their move to Barcelona and flopped the show and returned to Portugal.

Queiroz is doing a ****-poor job atm

Sorry, but, good! I want him back at man utd! (as assistant only, obviously)

Fergie is better than anyone else in the world at bringing the full potential out of younger players.

Arsene Wenger.

we might be the reason to why he react like that at the moment?

lol, after that welcome he got when coming on as a sub against villarreal? i dont think so.

Or should he really come out to apologise?

he isn't man enough. saying 'sorry for sparking the rift between man utd and madrid' doesnt count. Real had been relying on Ronaldo asking for a move, but he always bottled that final act and the way he avoided flying back to Manchester also showed he had lost his nerve to push for a transfer. if he's not man enough to do that, then I don't see a proper apology coming from him.

Its amazing how everyone gets totally pi##ed off with the lack of goal celebrations , berbatov has done it a few times already this season and doesnt seem as ecstatic as he should do , i am sure sure inside he is over the moon.

Theres a difference, that is Berbatov's character. Go find me a video of him doing a backflip after scoring a goal for Spurs and I'll change my mind. That is not Ronaldo's character, as seen by pretty much every goal celebration last year. We all know that Berbatov wants to be here and we all know that there is a certain club in Spain that Cristiano Ronaldo would rather be.

Oh and Sporting4Ever, out of interest, how far do you think Nani will go? there's alot of debate on this forum about him, just interested to see what you think of his character etc as I'm sure you saw alot of him for Sporting.

 

[reddwarf]

Ronaldo has given an interview to MUTV today. From manutd.com...

Cristiano Ronaldo has given his first full-length interview since the summer's transfer saga to MUTV, the club's official television channel.

Recorded today (Monday), Cristiano's candid conversation covers a number of topics. You can see the first part, on his future, in The Paddy Crerand Show from 18:30 tonight.

"I think I’m an ambitious person, not just in football but in normal life," says Ronaldo.

"If I have an opportunity to be better than I am, then I try to take it. I hope I’ll always win things at this club, not just the individual things but for the collective.

"I feel proud because I am still young and have won many things. But for me it is not enough, I want to win more. I think I am at the right club, playing with the right players."

I'm sure most of you will take his comments with a pinch of salt but at least he's saying the right things. Now he just needs to start doing the right things!

 

[scottsati]

at least when he scored he could have pretended he enjoyed it and was happy for the fans, i've seen more emotion from a corpse

 

[Jazz 16]

Berbatov doesn't run around celebrating but at least he nonchalantly raises an arm or smiles. Ronaldo gave no reaction whatsoever. Plus, anyone who has watched Berbatov play expects him to behave like that.

I joined in singing Viva Ronaldo when he scored and I will the next time he scores but he needs to interact with the fans in some way because otherwise he'll lose the few remaining friends/fans he has.

I think a lot of people are taking his 'non celebrating' too seriously.

I saw someone who is short of fitness, but didn't stop running to try and create
opportunities (either for himself, or through his movement, for others). Granted,
he did not chase back as much as Rooney...but then he never did.

With regard to his (lack of) celebration, it is pretty apparent that that he never
overtly celebrates when he is either disappointed with his own performance, or
when he feels it is not a significant accomplishment - you only had to witness that last season.

It will take a while for the fans to 'like' him or trust him again and he needs to offer
us something in return (like helping us win games regularly) but we cant drive
our best asset away from the club. He has done so much for us, just like United
has given him the platform to become the best in the world.

We need to support him till he moves on. Booing him etc...will not be good for teh club.

 

[stretty]

What he have done on the pitch is in the history books and what he was doing in the summer will never be there. And what he can do on the pitch no one can take that away from him and his previous season will be one of the best seasons any football have done in the history of the game. But between me and Ronaldo is like a love that gone cold. Time to see other people.
And no irony but I really admire you who still can defend this guy. But for me he just ruined the summer of celebrations. And also, the Berbatov part of the summer was a ****ty part too and maybe Ronaldo gets all the blame even for that part as well....but as I said...our love gone cold.

There is nothing to admire mate i am just loyal to everyone who pulls a red shirt on , i cheer them all.
I might slag them off on forums like this , but i believe it is the right place to voice your opinion with fellow reds, and get right behind them at old trafford.
While ronny is pulling on the red shirt and is playing he has my support end of.

 

[christianoharleiro]

he never overtly celebrates when he is either disappointed with his own performance, or when he feels it is not a significant accomplishment - you only had to witness that last season.

What?? see last season Derby 1-0 and Liverpool 3-0 as proof (there are others, but those 2 just spring to mind)

 

[scott 4 evra]

Were they as ridiculous as saying Darren Fletcher is better than Owen Hargreaves?

It was not only against WBA that Ronaldo didn't celebrate or didn't smile after scoring - he hasn't smiled at all after scoring this season.

Not after his scoring against Boro or against Bolton.

There's no or little point having the greatest player in the world if his heart is not in it.
As soon as Fergie can find a suitable replacement, Ronnie is out the door.

When it comes to the tail end of the season and legs get tired and the games are important, team spirit will count for a lot and it helped man utd a lot last season.

By the same token Drogba and Ben Haim were making unhappy noises in the Chelsea camp and it sure didn't help their cause.

Yes, Ronaldo deserves to win the Ballon d'Or and he is very, very talented, but I would not want to see too much more of his unhappiness.

I have not seen it in my time as a Man Utd fan and it is very hard for me to bear.

Becks and Ruud weren't sold because they wanted to leave only Heinze was and that happened over the course of 1 summer and we didn't have to see his unhappy face playing in a man utd jersey.

If Ronaldo is having some problems in his personal life, then I can understand, but not smiling at all after three goals seems very suspicious to me and of course that suspicion is born out of his actions over the summer.

You can't expect us all to starting loving him again immediately. It will take a lot for me to sing his name again and there are many others who feel that way.

I do not put results before loyalty.

Yes, he's been professional and is helping us get results, but I'd rather have every man committed to the cause and maybe not be as successful as we would be with Ronaldo on board, but at least you have camaraderie, proper team spirit, loyalty and honesty.

Well don't know what your obsession is with hargeaves but most people i talk to believe flecth is better atm. anyway my point was instead of being negative seen as we're double winners and all, i'm goin to go a bit insane and enjoy watchin the best player in the world play with my beloved club. apoplogies.

 

[christianoharleiro]

Well don't know what your obsession is with hargeaves but most people i talk to believe flecth is better atm.

lol one bad comment after another.

of course fletcher is better atm, hes playing and hargreaves is injured!?

anyone who thinks fletcher is a better footballer than hargreaves in any way is just...

 

[TheManc]

Essay time!


Arsene Wenger.

.

How many young players with genuine top potential has Wenger help to make world class?

Fabregas, Clichy, Flamini, Henry now I'm struggling...

Fergie: Becks, Scholes, Giggs, Neville, Ronaldo, Rooney ect.

Wenger may make more 'good players', but thats becasue he can afford to do that.

Once Fergie identifies a youngster who he see's as someone with great potential he is the best man for the job - including Wneger.

/ Sorry for going OT

 

[spellbound]

lol one bad comment after another.

of course fletcher is better atm, hes playing and hargreaves is injured!?

anyone who thinks fletcher is a better footballer than hargreaves in any way is just...

Just what??....I say Fletch is better then Hargo...so now...just...?

 

[RedForceRising]

a) Having a laugh
b) provoking on purpose
c) on some serious chemicals
d) very deluded
e) Missus Fletcher
f) all of the above

 

[scott 4 evra]

u must be the only fan who thinks hargreaves is miles better than fletcher. how do u set up a poll this would help this debate.

imo your saying that more than half of united fans are on drugs cause fletcher is better. there's not much in it but the fact than fletcher has been here so long and is rarely injured swings it for me.

as players i actually think they are very similar and put in a lot of energy in big games. both aren't gr8 passers, both score about 3 a season, both can tackle and have a bit of pace. if we were to get rid of one i'd prefer to keep fletcher.

sometimes i tink people are blinded by the transfer fee.

 

[spellbound]

a) Having a laugh
b) provoking on purpose
c) on some serious chemicals
d) very deluded
e) Missus Fletcher
f) all of the above

Right answer is B

Why? Coz I always get so amazed how people call others names just because they dont agree with them. Even if its done with the glimps in the eye its not always so easy to understand.

 

[RedForceRising]

u must be the only fan who thinks hargreaves is miles better than fletcher. how do u set up a poll this would help this debate.

imo your saying that more than half of united fans are on drugs cause fletcher is better. there's not much in it but the fact than fletcher has been here so long and is rarely injured swings it for me.

as players i actually think they are very similar and put in a lot of energy in big games. both aren't gr8 passers, both score about 3 a season, both can tackle and have a bit of pace. if we were to get rid of one i'd prefer to keep fletcher.

sometimes i tink people are blinded by the transfer fee.

You are entitled to your opinion, but you'll be in the minority.

I think ppl just make a statement and stick to it no matter how wrong they are.

Fletcher is decent at best. Meaning he could be a regular for Everton, Blackburn or Sunderland.

Hargreaves is class, was a regular starter at Bayern and would walk into most of the big European teams. When fit.

 

[RedForceRising]

Well don't know what your obsession is with hargeaves but most people i talk to believe flecth is better atm. anyway my point was instead of being negative seen as we're double winners and all, i'm goin to go a bit insane and enjoy watchin the best player in the world play with my beloved club. apoplogies.

I actually just read this and am really confused whether you're pulling my leg or making up your own reality?

ch said that of course Flether is better atm, because Hargreaves is injured and Fletcher is actually playing, but I would disagree.

Hargreaves lying crocked at home on the couch playing XBox is still a much better footballer than Darren Fletcher.

Fletcher has had mixed games since the start of the season and people tend to get carried away by his two goals (one was a serious deflection).

His passing is horrendous and he has zero awareness.

Against Blackburn he was dispossessed several times, because he had no idea what was going on around him.

I am honestly confused and hope you;re just writing this ruffle a few feathers.

 

[spellbound]

You are entitled to your opinion, but you'll be in the minority.

I think ppl just make a statement and stick to it no matter how wrong they are.

Fletcher is decent at best. Meaning he could be a regular for Everton, Blackburn or Sunderland.

Hargreaves is class, was a regular starter at Bayern and would walk into most of the big European teams. When fit.

I remember when Mr Eriksson made Owen an England midfielder he faces soar critics. I even remember some collumnists in Swedish tv questioned his knowledge of football. Its fun to see how a few years difference could chance peoples view. This goes with Walcott as well.

About Fletch or Hargreaves...both players are needed in the team. For different uses in different tactics. And as long as Owen struggle with fitness Fletch is what the team needs more then ever.

 

[christianoharleiro]

as players i actually think they are very similar and put in a lot of energy in big games. both aren't gr8 passers, both score about 3 a season, both can tackle and have a bit of pace. if we were to get rid of one i'd prefer to keep fletcher.

sometimes i tink people are blinded by the transfer fee.

Like RFR, I really can't tell if you're just trying to 'ruffle a few feathers.' or you just don't like Hargreaves' curly hair? Because you can't seriously think Fletcher is better than Hargreaves. your saying that more than half of united fans are on drugs cause fletcher is better. more than half of united fans, yeah, blatently. sometimes i tink people are blinded by the transfer fee. sometimes i think people open their mouths too much on subjects which they have no idea about. Go watch some of the England games in the 2006 WC.

Why? Coz I always get so amazed how people call others names just because they dont agree with them. Even if its done with the glimps in the eye its not always so easy to understand.

I always get so amazed how people get things into their head when they never existed. I also am amazed by people who think someone saying 'fletcher is better than hargreaves' is an opinion and not a ridiculous wind-up.

I think ppl just make a statement and stick to it no matter how wrong they are.

so, so true.

ch said that of course Flether is better atm, because Hargreaves is injured and Fletcher is actually playing, but I would disagree.

Hargreaves lying crocked at home on the couch playing XBox is still a much better footballer than Darren Fletcher.

valid point.

Fletcher has had mixed games since the start of the season and people tend to get carried away by his two goals (one was a serious deflection).

His passing is horrendous and he has zero awareness.

Against Blackburn he was dispossessed several times, because he had no idea what was going on around him.

agreed.

TheManc, when I can be bothered I'll do a list of the youth products both Wenger and Ferguson have developed, I'm pretty sure Wenger will win.

 

[antdevil78]

Before I comment - ABO: your banned from this thread.


Ronaldo this season has been "ordinary" - nothing special nothing to shout about.

bar rooney, that sums up united as a team this season, we have been not much to shout about. anyone who says otherwise is lying to themselves.

Dont you think being sat out watching the team play since start of season and the crowd singing songs for all the players except his songs would get to him. the fans made their decision collectively by snubbing him and i think this is his way of returning the compliment.

We should have been behind him since the first friendly to show him their is no greater club in the world than united. Instead we have virtually put the stamp on the Madrid postcard he will send us at the end of this season.

We as fans could have influenced him into wanting to remain a red. I honestly think it was us after the rooney world cup incident that kept him at united by showing him we value club over country and stood by him. That season that followed he duly repaid us.

I think for so called "fans" to expect him to play with the same passion as last season and get nothing back in appreciation is verging on lunacy.

 

[scott 4 evra]

Like RFR, I really can't tell if you're just trying to 'ruffle a few feathers.' or you just don't like Hargreaves' curly hair? Because you can't seriously think Fletcher is better than Hargreaves. your saying that more than half of united fans are on drugs cause fletcher is better. more than half of united fans, yeah, blatently. sometimes i tink people are blinded by the transfer fee. sometimes i think people open their mouths too much on subjects which they have no idea about. Go watch some of the England games in the 2006 WC.



I always get so amazed how people get things into their head when they never existed. I also am amazed by people who think someone saying 'fletcher is better than hargreaves' is an opinion and not a ridiculous wind-up.



so, so true.



valid point.



agreed.

TheManc, when I can be bothered I'll do a list of the youth products both Wenger and Ferguson have developed, I'm pretty sure Wenger will win.

Hargreaves has usually been poor for england. he was the best of a bad bunch in the world cup squad. what you have against fletcher, i don't know but he is definetely a better player than Hargreaves.