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Lo and behold, this thread was closed and opened again. Magic....

1. When United played badly, negative comments and sentiments are but only natural and truthful because there are only genuine concerns and care for the team.

2. Whether United win the Double or not at the end of the season is a separate issue altogether with the earlier honest discussions there and then when United played badly.

3. Don't have to spend so much time and effort to dig out posts after posts from genuine members that participated in those honest discussions. It hurts the spirit of a forum and only reflects the level of maturity and the sort of mentality the witch hunter sadly possesses.


P.S.
1. Just not to speak "in riddles" for the sole benefit of Carly, this is parallel to the point I last raised in this thread….. A senior staff of a forum telling members who expressed their honest opinions the following is indeed highly objectionable and does a FORUM no good at all: "None of them are coaches, none of them are qualified in this job and yet they claim to know more than the best of the best."

2. Carly, thanks for reading each and every of my postings; you really flatter me. If you are bringing up about the “guy in another thread somewhere, telling him what he should/should not writeâ€, please also announce that the thread is the one on United being labeled as one-man team. Let the members at least read to understand the circumstance. Don't have to make it so ‘vague' and ‘mysterious' even though it was done and dusted there and then. Honesty is the best policy, remember?
 
versa said:
Lo and behold, this thread was closed and opened again. Magic....

Don't know who closed it - not magic really ... just one click and it's done ;)

1. When United played badly, negative comments and sentiments are but only natural and truthful because there are only genuine concerns and care for the team.

You mean like you asking: "Did he chicken out or is he a big fat liar !!!" Calling the manager of United 'gutless' and insinuating he is a liar shows genuine care and concern for the team does it ? It's offensive and derogatory !
It achives nothing ! The fact we are now going to Moscow it kind of makes you look a bit silly too ...


2. Whether United win the Double or not at the end of the season is a separate issue altogether with the earlier honest discussions there and then when United played badly.

Nonsense ! What he was doing when everyone was slagging him off ... was part of his long term plans for reaching Moscow and for winning the League again ! One went wrong, the other worked out perfectly. How can the Chelsea game and the Barca game(s) be called a seperate entity from the double ? You certainly have some bizarre ways of talking about things.

3. Don't have to spend so much time and effort to dig out posts after posts from genuine members that participated in those honest discussions. It hurts the spirit of a forum and only reflects the level of maturity and the sort of mentality the witch hunter sadly possesses.


Took about 3 minutes thats all, quote, copy/paste, quote ... etc etc. It was done in a lighthearted manner - so these guys can go along and say some good words about Fergie in the new thread then no one will have excuses to make a big deal of their criticisms earlier, which could happen, I've seen it !!! But with you here - stirring it up - yet again :rolleyes: maybe that wont happen now ... well done Mr Versa mission accomplished I guess. So given that I did it for good reasons I just explained ... It's hardly going to hurt the spirit of a forum as you insinuate does it ? No of course not ! Questioning my maturity and mentality is getting rather personal so I will choose to ignore those comments Versa .... I'll leave all that up to you OK.

P.S.
1. Just not to speak "in riddles" for the sole benefit of Carly, this is parallel to the point I last raised in this thread….. A senior staff of a forum telling members who expressed their honest opinions the following is indeed highly objectionable and does a FORUM no good at all: "None of them are coaches, none of them are qualified in this job and yet they claim to know more than the best of the best."

You, and only you say it is highly objectionable ... nobody else. I like the little quip "for the sole benefit of Carly" ... quite cute and very subtle way of saying I dont understand ... and you talk to me about maturity, LMAO.

2. Carly, thanks for reading each and every of my postings; you really flatter me. If you are bringing up about the “guy in another thread somewhere, telling him what he should/should not writeâ€, please also announce that the thread is the one on United being labeled as one-man team. Let the members at least read to understand the circumstance. Don't have to make it so ‘vague' and ‘mysterious' even though it was done and dusted there and then. Honesty is the best policy, remember?
I rarely have the time to read through your posts sorry. So the flattery is uncalled for ... hate to burst the bubble ... as for the "guy in the other post" well thats all it was to me, lol.....I have no idea where it was or what it was about........I make it 'vague' and 'mysterious' ... You've lost me again. It was the way you told someone how to make posts amused me, not the content of the post, that was a bit boring as it happens.

Much as I appreciate your attention on this thread and your enormous efforts in writing so much about me and my actions ... I'm getting a bit bored with it now so can't we write about something else ? Can't you just wait for my next post and jump on that and criticise me for that one - like you normally do. At least it changes the flavour of the posts huh ... :p
 
carlyluvsunited said:
Can't you just wait for my next post and jump on that and criticise me for that one - like you normally do. At least it changes the flavour of the posts huh ... :p
Sorry to disappoint you too. I am only issue-specific, not person-specific; I look out for issues only, not person(s). Believe me, Carly. ;)

Anyway, I am as happy as everybody here in the forum for the CL Final. So whoever wants to call me names, I don't mind at all. :D :D
 
Every manager, every week, faces critics; its the nature of the beast. The problem arises when people with rose tinted glasses cannot see failings of any sort. I accuse nobody in here but am generalising.

As Fergie himself said the other day, but not in his words, "We have had some bad days, good days, decisions given, decisions against, good luck, bad luck. We are top of the Premiership with 2 games to play, one home, one away. We are (now) in the Champions League final. Its a disaster!!"

Fergie himself is the first to admit, if not in public, that he has made errors. But the biggest error of all this oh so successful season, has not been from Fergie but from the players he has selected for various games. They have not performed as he would have, and should, have expected.

If Fergie has any faults its his faith in the rotation system and his (possible) belief that some games are already won. Too many games has he made changes to teams that should not have been made before the whistle and it has backfired. He, like any other manager, should always play his BEST eleven at the start of any game and then, when they have achieved the "win", take players off and rest them.

I often quote Bill Shankly in this, but you are all probably aware of it by now. Nevertheless, its been a good season, a hard season and a hopefully doubly successful season.

To Fergies credit, this has possibly been the hardest title to win, if we do indeed win it. credit to him, credit to his purchases and credit to the team. BUT, we could have done better ;)
 
the mistake was made in january if we are all honest ,when we did not buy a striker who we could use.that decision has left us with only 2 strikers who are both carrying injuries or not 100% fit at a very important part of the season ,this has persuaded fergie to try and play safe or negative in a few games of late .
fergie will sort this striker problem out once and for all this summer thats for sure,hopefully we will get the show rolling again after that great result against barca and we must get rooney fit for the final he will be crucial in that game.
 
carlyluvsunited said:
You raise some good points desmondo, and I do hear what you say.

My biggest problem, which I don't think I highlighted is when the guys or girls
here start threads about Fergie after a bad result ... and then set about saying
ie. Ronnie was rubbish up front, he shouldn't be there, Rooney on the wing is
rubbish, is Fergie mad resting Ronnie, Tevez etc etc and then going on to say
what they would have done.

That's easy to do ... hindsight is a wonderful thing. You have all the facts before
you and time enough to make up any solution you wish to. Write it on a forum
and thats that - here's how you do it, thats what Fergie should have done and
now he better sort it out !!

None of them are coaches, none of them are qualified in this job and yet they
claim to know more than the best of the best.

It must be a nightmare for Fergie if he has an idea or plan he wants to try out.
Trying new things is pioneering and it's what makes winners. But how the hell
can anyone risk that if the fans jump on your back as soon as something doesn't
go their way ?

If it finished 1 - 1 at The Bridge Saturday - all we would hear right now is what a
genius Fergie is - he rested 4 top players and can you believe it - he won us the
League title. He's an absolute genious !!

He was 4 minutes from that scenario !! It was taken away by a penalty decision,
right or wong decision doesn't matter now, but a penalty !!!

Four very little minutes away from having page after page after page of praise
here on manutdtalk.com ... one dodgy penalty decsion now means he gets page
after page after page of being told he is inept with tactics, team selection is all
wrong, players are in the wrong positions etc etc.

He tried being a cheeky git against Chelsea by nicking a point and virtually
winning the League AND RESTING FOUR TOP STARS TOO.!!

I praise him for trying that ... the advantage of having fresh players against Barca
would have made a huge difference.

I just think it would be nice for people to recognise him for what he does when he
tries new tactics and new ideas - especially if they go wrong.
Yes , hindsight is a wonderful thing and in hindsight after beating Barca I can see more what Fergie was trying to achieve. I still think the win over 2 legs could have been much more convincing. A real United performance would have maybe conceded a goal but would have found many more cracks in that barca defence and fragile confidence.
Anyway , you are right that none of us are top coaches and I for one thought he was wrong to sell beckham and van nistelrooy , but he got those right. You make a good point about those who , the moment we lose, just call for fergie's head because we have to get away from this fickle results based thinking.

I did think we would squeeze past Barca but I also now hope that we don't sit back against Chelsea and show them the same amount of space because if we do they will beat us. Unlike Barca they have a cutting edge.

One point I would like to make is that labelling us lot as negative moaners is basically inaccurate. I feel as if I am far more positive about United than some of the rest of you. It's precisely because I do believe that we are much more effective and a better team when we try and intimidate the opposition with our play rather than sit back on the counter. I see many of those who attack us for "moaning" as the negative ones in reality because they seem happy with negative tactics. It also not about "pretty" play either . If I thought that United had a better chance of beating Chelsea by playing ugly , negative and defensive then I would say go for it and win on penalties lads! But I don't. We are just not as good at doing that ( even though sometimes we do a damn good impression of Sven's England) as we are at attacking.

I see myself and versa and others as the positive ones because we believe an attacking United high tempo has a better chance than a negative one - because nobody does it as well as we do. We must play to our strengths and not betray the basic philosophies that have made United (and Fergie's dynasty) what they are.

So I'm officially turning the tables on all you negative thinkers who are not positive and don't really believe that United are good enough to win things on their own terms , in there own way. We are the positive ones really because we believe in effective , direct attacking , pressure on the ball football. That's why we get so twitchy seeing United defend deep and jog around like netball players admiring another team's football whilst trying to make last ditch precise tackles in our own box for most of a game.

This approach is often seen as "tactical" and "defensive" but to me it is just asking to get hit by a sucker punch. Let me ask you this. When did you feel the most nervous that Barca might score? Was it when we pressed them into mistakes and started winning the ball off them and forming some of our own attacks or was it when we allowed messi to dribble at us on the edge of our own box? I know when it was that my finger nails took a pounding!!!! One thing you don't have to be a coach to know is this- it's very difficult for the other team to score when you are having a shot at their goal.

So stop and think before you label us as negative and tactically naive because that's exactly how I feel about you ostriches.

(BTW- I'm only having a bit of fun - let's celebrate the win for now!!! I don't care if he's wrong or right - he pulled it off anyway!! Bring on the Chelski )
 
desmondo said:
Yes , hindsight is a wonderful thing and in hindsight after beating Barca I can see more what Fergie was trying to achieve. I still think the win over 2 legs could have been much more convincing. A real United performance would have maybe conceded a goal but would have found many more cracks in that barca defence and fragile confidence.
Anyway , you are right that none of us are top coaches and I for one thought he was wrong to sell beckham and van nistelrooy , but he got those right. You make a good point about those who , the moment we lose, just call for fergie's head because we have to get away from this fickle results based thinking.

I did think we would squeeze past Barca but I also now hope that we don't sit back against Chelsea and show them the same amount of space because if we do they will beat us. Unlike Barca they have a cutting edge.

One point I would like to make is that labelling us lot as negative moaners is basically inaccurate. I feel as if I am far more positive about United than some of the rest of you. It's precisely because I do believe that we are much more effective and a better team when we try and intimidate the opposition with our play rather than sit back on the counter. I see many of those who attack us for "moaning" as the negative ones in reality because they seem happy with negative tactics. It also not about "pretty" play either . If I thought that United had a better chance of beating Chelsea by playing ugly , negative and defensive then I would say go for it and win on penalties lads! But I don't. We are just not as good at doing that ( even though sometimes we do a damn good impression of Sven's England) as we are at attacking.

I see myself and versa and others as the positive ones because we believe an attacking United high tempo has a better chance than a negative one - because nobody does it as well as we do. We must play to our strengths and not betray the basic philosophies that have made United (and Fergie's dynasty) what they are.

So I'm officially turning the tables on all you negative thinkers who are not positive and don't really believe that United are good enough to win things on their own terms , in there own way. We are the positive ones really because we believe in effective , direct attacking , pressure on the ball football. That's why we get so twitchy seeing United defend deep and jog around like netball players admiring another team's football whilst trying to make last ditch precise tackles in our own box for most of a game.

This approach is often seen as "tactical" and "defensive" but to me it is just asking to get hit by a sucker punch. Let me ask you this. When did you feel the most nervous that Barca might score? Was it when we pressed them into mistakes and started winning the ball off them and forming some of our own attacks or was it when we allowed messi to dribble at us on the edge of our own box? I know when it was that my finger nails took a pounding!!!! One thing you don't have to be a coach to know is this- it's very difficult for the other team to score when you are having a shot at their goal.

So stop and think before you label us as negative and tactically naive because that's exactly how I feel about you ostriches.

(BTW- I'm only having a bit of fun - let's celebrate the win for now!!! I don't care if he's wrong or right - he pulled it off anyway!! Bring on the Chelski )
well well said.
We can attack, why sit back?
We can win, why choose not to lose?
 
Think Desmondo brought up a new surprising point worth mentioning here. After that, guess this thread should be done and dusted.

I didn't realise we, 'moaners', are actually more positive. Lol. Because we believe we are more capable than what we think we are and should attack to win games, and really take it very badly when we choose to sit back and defend for a draw, and get an 'accident' against us eg Chelsea game. If we play to our strength by attacking but still can't win, well and fine. At least our best was not good enough in that game. Or at least we have a better chance than not to utilise our strength at all (?).

And one final point. Don't you think it actually reflects our actual self-belief and confidence when we choose to defend for a draw at Chelsea instead of going for the jugular to finish them off and seal the title there and then? Surely it cannot be because we only want to win it on the last day!? Yes, I actually think we didn't believe we would win the title at Stamford Bridge. I thought the most positive reason for taking out Anderson in the game then was to rest him for the Barca game. Now we all know. He didn't even kick the ball on Tuesday!!!

Take it away, Yang....

yangch0000 said:
well well said.
We can attack, why sit back?
We can win, why choose not to lose?
 
yangch0000 said:
well well said.
We can attack, why sit back?
We can win, why choose not to lose?
Exactly , and despite the barca win it can still all go horribly wrong. Let's say we beat west ham , chelsea get a point at the geordies , we then need a point against wigan , we sit back and play for the draw (worst possible choice) and lose , chelsea win at home , title gone, fergie then thinks " ok it worked against barca , why not chelsea ? " we sit back , play it tactical , chelsea gain confidence , balls go into our box......well you can see where I'm going with this.

My point here is that chelsea have found a winning way and they are sticking to it , they will not change , they know what they are good at and that's that. We have found our way this season but I STILL sense the temptation in our camp to abandon it in favour of second rate impersonations of chelsea. I still see how this could happen if we show teams too much respect and don't play to our strengths. We have the best team in europe and it's time to believe it and show it. All champions have that edge of ****y arrogance and belief in them that takes them over the line and we won't get over it if we fear the team we are playing , respect yes , fear no. Don't let the barca game fool any of you. Barca were a dangerous but fragile team low on confidence and unity just asking to be pressurised and rolled over. We sneaked through in a very dangerous fashion.

I still think we'll do it but I may have no fingers left by the end.

versa said:
Think Desmondo brought up a new surprising point worth mentioning here. After that, guess this thread should be done and dusted.

I didn't realise we, 'moaners', are actually more positive. Lol. Because we believe we are more capable than what we think we are and should attack to win games, and really take it very badly when we choose to sit back and defend for a draw, and get an 'accident' against us eg Chelsea game. If we play to our strength by attacking but still can't win, well and fine. At least our best was not good enough in that game. Or at least we have a better chance than not to utilise our strength at all (?).

And one final point. Don't you think it actually reflects our actual self-belief and confidence when we choose to defend for a draw at Chelsea instead of going for the jugular to finish them off and seal the title there and then? Surely it cannot be because we only want to win it on the last day!? Yes, I actually think we didn't believe we would win the title at Stamford Bridge. I thought the most positive reason for taking out Anderson in the game then was to rest him for the Barca game. Now we all know. He didn't even kick the ball on Tuesday!!!

Take it away, Yang....
There's a psychological principle at work here. Teams that play for draws often end up with egg on their faces because they focus on the fear of losing rather than success. Cantona never approached penalties with fear or negativity because he saw them as a great opportunity to score. Players that focus on not missing often miss because what your mind focusses on is what you end up getting. Take Sheff United . If they had needed a win against wigan on the last day you could almost guarantee that they would ahve got at least a draw. Wigan needed a win so therefore they played with no fear because a draw was no good anyway. See my point anyone? So to me focussing so much on stopping another team rather than forcing them to worry about you is bad psychology if you are infact better than them because you have thrown away the one psychological advantage you have.

My understanding is that although teams that have the lions share of possession don't always win , they do win far more often than the team that doesn't get the ball so much. If I said to you that chelsea were going to get 65% of possession in moscow and 7-2 on corners would any of you be happy? I would not be betting on a victory with those stats.
 
desmondo said:
There's a psychological principle at work here. Teams that play for draws often end up with egg on their faces because they focus on the fear of losing rather than success.

So to me focussing so much on stopping another team rather than forcing them to worry about you is bad psychology if you are infact better than them because you have thrown away the one psychological advantage you have.

My understanding is that although teams that have the lions share of possession don't always win , they do win far more often than the team that doesn't get the ball so much.
Another angle of looking at it... I concur.
 
Nicely put guys... I'm of the same opinion, I love the team and if I feel their playing short of their full potential whether they win lose or draw I feel I'm entitled to criticise if i see fit... united are vying to be the best in the premiership/ europe / the world... those who want to be the best have to earn that honour, and have to be scrutinised based on the true great sides that have gone before...

Another major criticism i have of fergie this year (and it could have hurt us dearly) is Gerard Pique, he's essentially our only cover at centre half if you want to keep wes at RB, he hasn't been given enough games and when we needed the cover when there was a scare with rio and vidic he wasnt ready!!

so if I say Nani and Carrick aren't good enough for CL level, I feel I'm entitled to do so, this isn't mid table this is the elite and they simply aren't good enough players at that level... if our manager play's our best player (wayne rooney) out of position he should be criticised, the fact that we won the tie doesn't cover up this mistake...

I NEVER want to see Rooney on the wing again!!

Its all ok NOW seeing that we're in the final and in pole position in the league but guys and girls this could have turned out very sour...
 
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