[RedForceRising]

It's been an unconvincing start to the season with a mix of results.

We could have won against Pool and Chelsea, but didn't take maximum points.
Although, Arsenal took the lead today, we didn't fashion a lot of chances, but 11 games in to the season and we don't look like defending champions....... yet.

So what's the missing ingredient?

Is it the departure of Carlos Quieroz, who played a big part in United winning back-to-back league titles and a Champions League title?

- By the way, I don't see Mike Phelan on the touchline barking at the player and gesticulating like Carlos use to.


Are we missing a certain type of player?

- In the summer everybody and their mothers were screaming for a striker, who could stay fit and get the most out of Rooney. Did we get that striker in the shape of Berbatov or did Ferguson make a mistake by buying a plyer with a brilliant touch, but isn't a clinical finisher.

- How about the midfield? At the moment we don't seem to have a playmaker in central midfield, who can score a few goals a season.


Are the players lacking the hunger?

- Success can breed complacency, so are the players lacking fire after the achievements of the last two seasons?


Is it something behind the scenes?

- Several members have noticed that some of the players seem fixated on scoring and are not passing the ball when they should.

- Others have noticed that certain players like Tevez seem hesitant to pass to others like Ronaldo.


Is it a combination of factors?


Would everything be fine, if our strikers learnt to put the ball in the freaking net?

- Even if they did, some of our play has not been anywhere near fluent and masterful.

 

[Because I'm DC]

lol. I've just posted this in the achilles heel thread. This is what I put in the match thread a few minutes ago about our midfield:

Midfield: As it happens, I thought the only two players who were actually decent were in midfield, and that's Park and Anderson. Both worked tirelessly to no reward. However, there was something missing which allowed Arsenal to play through us. Perhaps the most troubling position for us is in midfield, which is odd considering Park and Anderson played well today. We're lacking a powerful midfielder who can control the tempo of a game - Carrick usually does the job, but he didn't today. I don't think he's the solution, and I don't thnk Hargreaves is, we need to bring someone in, and here's what I would propose: we sell Fletcher, Park and Hargreaves. This isn't in the heat of the moment either, but it's something that's evident; none of these three players are good enough. Fletcher is a great guy, no doubt, but is he good enough? Probably not - same goes for Park, and he won't get the games. Is he really happy just coming in once a month for the odd match? Hagreaves? Well I know a lot of you like him, but I'm not a fan, he's not the solution, and he can't stay fit. Saha was bashed for it, and so should he.

With those three gone, this would leave us with a midfield of Scholes, Carrick, Anderson, Giggs, Nani and Possebon. Not enough, but then we bring in one powerful midfielder, much like Chelsea have. In the mold of a Ballack or a Mikel, someone who can dominate a midfield and control the tempo and offer some physicality. The three players I suggested selling will probably get us around twenty million, and considering we need thirty for Tevez, I doubt we'll have the cash to bring in someone of the calibre I just mentioned. Oh well.

 

[moondog]

RFR - I hadn't read this before starting the Carlois Q thread....hope I didn't steal your thunder.

 

[sparkic]

Very good thread mate!

I would sit here and post a massive response but I got final exams at the moment and its like 2:48am here in Australia so I should study or get some sleep! I will be looking forward to some of the responses which I hopefully will be reading after my exams are done in a weeks time because it is good to analyze what we are doing wrong before we try to make some improvements or sit here and complain; and some very good points were raised by RFR.

Im just glad all our tough away games in the league are gone (bar Man City) and all tough away games vs the big 4 done...but the worrying thing is just getting 1 point out of 9 vs the big four away when we could of won all of them with the way our team performed in the 1st half! This is identical to Liverpoo last season if you ask me in terms of performance vs big four away...

 

[TheManc]

It's been an unconvincing start to the season with a mix of results.



Would everything be fine, if our strikers learnt to put the ball in the freaking net?[/B]

- Even if they did, some of our play has not been anywhere near fluent and masterful.

In a nut shell IMO. Last season we didn't play consistant attractive football anyway.

We just need to learn how to score. It was the same last season, only Ronaldo covered it up. Rooney and Tevez need to get there act together. If I was Fergie I'd make them stay back 2 hours everyday and work on there finishing.

Times like these I miss Ole

 

[Red Devil]

Commitment


There isn't any.

 

[Salford Lad]

Berba = mistake (plays too deep, no pace, not a clinical finisher, lazy).

Carrick = only good when we are winning


Midfield has no bite ( we can get away with it against the weaker sides but good sides can waltz through our midfield).

Never replaced Roy Keane ( hargreaves good enough but been crocked) .

We struggled last season to make chances even against the likes of Derby (away).

I dont think Queiroz going being any problem at all.

I have noticed Ronaldo doesn't pass to Berbatoss

It's been an unconvincing start to the season with a mix of results.

We could have won against Pool and Chelsea, but didn't take maximum points.
Although, Arsenal took the lead today, we didn't fashion a lot of chances, but 11 games in to the season and we don't look like defending champions....... yet.

So what's the missing ingredient?

Is it the departure of Carlos Quieroz, who played a big part in United winning back-to-back league titles and a Champions League title?

- By the way, I don't see Mike Phelan on the touchline barking at the player and gesticulating like Carlos use to.


Are we missing a certain type of player?

- In the summer everybody and their mothers were screaming for a striker, who could stay fit and get the most out of Rooney. Did we get that striker in the shape of Berbatov or did Ferguson make a mistake by buying a plyer with a brilliant touch, but isn't a clinical finisher.

- How about the midfield? At the moment we don't seem to have a playmaker in central midfield, who can score a few goals a season.


Are the players lacking the hunger?

- Success can breed complacency, so are the players lacking fire after the achievements of the last two seasons?


Is it something behind the scenes?

- Several members have noticed that some of the players seem fixated on scoring and are not passing the ball when they should.

- Others have noticed that certain players like Tevez seem hesitant to pass to others like Ronaldo.


Is it a combination of factors?


Would everything be fine, if our strikers learnt to put the ball in the freaking net?

- Even if they did, some of our play has not been anywhere near fluent and masterful.

 

[Salford Lad]

i cant believe fergie took rooney off and left Berbatoss on the pitch.

He was pathetic again ! just like against Liverpool and Chelsea

 

[RedForceRising]

lol. I've just posted this in the achilles heel thread. This is what I put in the match thread a few minutes ago about our midfield:

Midfield: As it happens, I thought the only two players who were actually decent were in midfield, and that's Park and Anderson. Both worked tirelessly to no reward. However, there was something missing which allowed Arsenal to play through us. Perhaps the most troubling position for us is in midfield, which is odd considering Park and Anderson played well today. We're lacking a powerful midfielder who can control the tempo of a game - Carrick usually does the job, but he didn't today. I don't think he's the solution, and I don't thnk Hargreaves is, we need to bring someone in, and here's what I would propose: we sell Fletcher, Park and Hargreaves. This isn't in the heat of the moment either, but it's something that's evident; none of these three players are good enough. Fletcher is a great guy, no doubt, but is he good enough? Probably not - same goes for Park, and he won't get the games. Is he really happy just coming in once a month for the odd match? Hagreaves? Well I know a lot of you like him, but I'm not a fan, he's not the solution, and he can't stay fit. Saha was bashed for it, and so should he.

With those three gone, this would leave us with a midfield of Scholes, Carrick, Anderson, Giggs, Nani and Possebon. Not enough, but then we bring in one powerful midfielder, much like Chelsea have. In the mold of a Ballack or a Mikel, someone who can dominate a midfield and control the tempo and offer some physicality. The three players I suggested selling will probably get us around twenty million, and considering we need thirty for Tevez, I doubt we'll have the cash to bring in someone of the calibre I just mentioned. Oh well.

Ha!

I actually comented on that in the matchday thread.

I just saw Steven Gerrard st up Robbie keane for his first goal and gotta say that I'd welcome some passing like that at United.

Even when we've been playing well a lot of times the final ball has been poor and I was hoping Anderson could fix that, but he looks a season away from being the solution.

I think we have the right players in Carrick, Anderson and Hargo. It's not necessarily about abiity, but about awareness and decision-making.

 

[RedForceRising]

i cant believe fergie took rooney off and left Berbatoss on the pitch.

He was pathetic again ! just like against Liverpool and Chelsea

I agree with you that I was surprised at that decsision, but can you tell me what Rooney did?

Berba was not pathetic. You are exaggerating. He was as bad / as good as anybody on the pitch except Park and Anderson.

Your post was more pathetic than Berba's performance.

 

[RedForceRising]

Berba = mistake (plays too deep, no pace, not a clinical finisher, lazy).

- ridiculous statement

Carrick = only good when we are winning


- ridiculous statement

Midfield has no bite ( we can get away with it against the weaker sides but good sides can waltz through our midfield).

- agreed!

Never replaced Roy Keane ( hargreaves good enough but been crocked) .


- agreed!

We struggled last season to make chances even against the likes of Derby (away).


- agreed!

I dont think Queiroz going being any problem at all.

I have noticed Ronaldo doesn't pass to Berbatoss

Well that was true until Berba did THAT move in the West Ham game for Ronaldo. After that Ronaldo passed to Berba once in a while, but maybe didn't get the chance to do so today.

PLease stop calling him berbatoss, he is a man united player.

 

[Jazz 16]

We are lacking the midfield general/leadership a la Keane.
I also think that hunger is an issue as well, even if the players themselves dont realise it.
Keane talked about it after they had won the CL in 99.(even though they won
the Prem 3 in a row, it was easier back then)
Another issue is the converting of chances, which will come in time.
We have played lots of tough games already.

If we were to win the CL this year and come second in the Prem, Id be very happy.

 

[piazza]

We just lack hunger. Its the same mistake we made after the Treble. We should have bought 2 or 3 class players in the summer. Roy Keane wrote about it in depth in his book. I think we're also missing a Keane type midfielder. We need someone who's gonna get in there and just smash people and boss the midfield. Maybe if Roma continue to struggle we can get De Rossi in January.

 

[versa]

Is it just me that after some terrible games no senior player comes out immediately to talk up the team or to do some war cries anymore? Seems just silence from the players.

 

[Salford Lad]

You agree the midfield has no bite !!

So you would agree Carrick has no bite ?

We need bite in midfield when we are in a tough game and not winning !

Consequently Carrick is only good when we are winning ( or against a team that is sitting back, where it is almost inevitable we will win).

Well that was true until Berba did THAT move in the West Ham game for Ronaldo. After that Ronaldo passed to Berba once in a while, but maybe didn't get the chance to do so today.

PLease stop calling him berbatoss, he is a man united player.

 

[Salford Lad]

Watch the match again without the emotion of a live match and analyze Berba.

What i found pathetic is the way he pulled out of 60/40's and fell over on his ass and also when he set up Nasri for the first goal he jumped sidewards and turned his back on the Nasri shot which he could of made an attempt to block.

Being a wimp is pathetic !

I agree with you that I was surprised at that decsision, but can you tell me what Rooney did?

Berba was not pathetic. You are exaggerating. He was as bad / as good as anybody on the pitch except Park and Anderson.

Your post was more pathetic than Berba's performance.

 

[Salford Lad]

Redforcerising; please read Sir Bobby Robsons article from the daily mail, he agrees with me that Berba plays too deep!

OR IS SIR BOBBY MAKING A RIDICOLOUS STAEMENT ALSO ????



Quote:
Originally Posted by Salford Lad
Berba = mistake (plays too deep, no pace, not a clinical finisher, lazy).

- ridiculous statement








Sir Bobby Robson: Time for Berbatov to start showing United why they bought himYou wouldn't have guessed on yesterday's performance that the Manchester United No 9 is the most expensive player in the club's illustrious history.

Dimitar Berbatov is more talented than Arsenal's centre-forward Nicklas Bendtner, a deputy for Emmanuel Adebayor, but he was nowhere near as great a threat.

Despite universal admiration for Sir Alex Ferguson, I think a lot of people would have been delighted for Arsene Wenger, who has received over-the-top criticism after a sticky fortnight in a fantastic 12 years at the club

Sir Alex won't panic even though United are slightly off the pace at the top of the table and have picked up only one point from their visits to Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal.

But I do think Berbatov has to start justifying his £31million price tag if United are to get back on top and win a third successive title.

Berbatov played too deep at Emirates Stadium and therefore wasn't a goal threat at all. He never looked like scoring and his record of one league goal in nine games for United suggests that has been a problem since he arrived from Spurs.

He doesn't look like the same player to me that thrilled us at Tottenham.

Berbatov has shown some sublime touches at times, including that fantastic turn to set up a goal for Cristiano Ronaldo against West Ham.

But a United No 9 has to provide goals as well, particularly as Sir Alex has had to leave out Carlos Tevez to accommodate him.

I watched Berbatov drop back virtually to the halfway line at times yesterday, content to get a few touches of the ball and play some simple passes. I bet Arsenal were delighted to see him so deep because he wasn't going to hurt them from there.
Berbatov is strong enough and skilful enough to hold the ball up and turn defenders where it counts - on the edge of the penalty area.

So I don't know why he didn't stay 15 yards further up the field. Funnelling back out of the danger zone was an easy option.

He spent more time facing Edwin van der Sar yesterday than Manuel Almunia, and that can't be right. It's important for the rest of United's season that he plays more like a genuine No 9.

Wayne Rooney and Ronaldo were more of a threat to Arsenal because they were brave enough to make the runs that really count, trying to get in behind defenders.

Overall, the game would compare favourably to classic league matches from any era. The fitness levels of the modern players are incredible, particularly considering they both had midweek games in the Champions League.

Arsenal's win proves it was premature to write them off. Four teams can win the Premier League season, and Arsenal are one of them.

So are United, although I have a slight doubt about their strength in depth when Paul Scholes and Owen Hargreaves are injured.

Anderson is going to develop into a very good player but Michael Carrick was also too deep yesterday while I'm not sure if Darren Fletcher, Ji-sung Park and Nani are quite at the very highest level to compete against a team such as Arsenal.

Sir Alex saw in Berbatov a player with the natural ability and big-game temperament to be a United legend, like Eric Cantona.

So far, though, he hasn't stepped up to the plate in the big games. He hasn't been a matchwinner when it counts. He has the talent, but until he shows it in front of goal, he will remain a worry for United

 

[Jay007]

It's been an unconvincing start to the season with a mix of results.


Is it the departure of Carlos Quieroz, who played a big part in United winning back-to-back league titles and a Champions League title?


Are we missing a certain type of player?


Are the players lacking the hunger?


Is it something behind the scenes?


Would everything be fine, if our strikers learnt to put the ball in the freaking net?


Is it a combination of factors?

I think it is indeed a combination of factors.

We can't say for certain, but it seems that Queiroz leaving has been a big blow. He was credited with an awful lot when he was here, including the solid defence (which ties in with another point.) We also can't say for certain either, but Mike Phelan didn't seem an inspiring choice as assistant manager, so could that also be a factor? I'm not saying it is, but just a thought.

We could well be. I think that we're missing a player that adds bite and drive to the midfield. I was hoping that Anderson could be that man, and I'm still optimistic that he can be. But he needs time to get up to that level, and to get some consistency.

We also could perhaps do with someone to cover Evra. Sure, O'Shea has been a good squad player for us. But it looks as though hes getting worse, and when Evra is injured/suspended we lose a lot. We do have Fabio, but I think it'll be another year or two before hes ready to be challenging.

There does seem to be a lack of hunger and commitment this season, especially after the last two seasons.

As for a behind the scenes thing, I think thats possible. There seems to have been an increase in some of the players having a go at each other on the pitch (I can't remember any in particular.) Also, it does seem that Tevez and Ronaldo aren't getting on, but hopefully thats just coincidence.

As for this point, the strikers have been struggling to score of late, and Berbatov and Rooney need to improve. However the defence has also been bad which certainly doesn't help.

 

[sweet fa]

the midfield need to get mean by cutting out the supply line to our opponents , and when we have got the ball the centre midfield should push up towards the strikers because thats the main reason berbatov and rooney drop back 60 yds to collect the ball.many times the strikers drop back so deep to get involved that they struggle to keep pace with our wingers when they break forward and are not there for the cross.essien would be utds dream player to correct the imbalance in the middle.

 

[antdevil78]

missing ingredient is realistic fans who need to stop thinking united are invincible and admit when they are not playing upto scratch.