[Guest]

Idea pinched from another forum i go on..

Is getting in Europe becoming more of a bad thing than a good thing for some teams?

Next season, the newly formed "Europa League" will be even longer than the current UEFA Cup,
with there being a staggering 21 games, from the beginning of the tournament (not including qualifying rounds, and so whoever finishes 7th in the league will have to play 23 games) to the final.
23 games is well over half a premiership season.

For a squad the size of Villa's for example playing an extra 15 games is going to be bad enough, let alone 23.
Also, all UEFA Cup games are played on a Thursday, and even though teams that have played on Thursday will play on the following Sunday, is three days enough to fully recover ?

Not only the UEFA Cup, but also the Champions League has raised some eyebrows recently.
Mad Rafa recently complained about having to play on a Wednesday then a Saturday against possibly a title rival. (You didn't hear him complaining on Sunday when Pool had played on Tuesday and United on Wednesday. He didn't say "I think this win was only because Man United played a day later".)

So my question is ..are teams going to try to do well in Europe and sacrifice maybe 10+ points in the league, or gain those ten points and not be succesful in Europe? Would you even go as far as saying that getting into Europe is a hinderence to team's chances domestically?

 

[PeeJay]

The financial benefits outweight the negatives by far,
also, teams can play their reserves/youth teams if they
only want to concentrate on the League.

 

[hatedastarfish]

its bizarre how teams like spurs and villa strived to qualify for this years WAFA up but then put out reserve teams. victims of circumstance IMO, spurs were in danger of slipping into a relegation dog fight and villa were hanging on to 4th.

 

[dlan4327]

If Aston Villa finish 4th, hypothetically, then the Champion League revenue would be reward enough.

They wouldn't even think about trying to do well in the CL. Imagine Villa playing Barca or Inter.

However they could definitely use the obscenely large sums of cash from qualifying for the CL.

 

[Richie]

The size of the this competition is a joke. Its far too many games as it is. There shouldn't be so many teams in it and the Champion's League failures shouldn't be there either.

So many teams have to sacrifice either the league or this cup its silly.

 

[Sporting4Ever]

Well, in my oppinion, this makes competitions like the League Cup superfluous. There's too many games a team can play.

On the other hand, putting this much pressure on the squads of clubs playing in Europe is good, because it's not so much of a shock when you get into the CL. And don't forget, there's championships with less teams, meaning a lot less games, and the difference you sometimes see in physical conditioning from other championships is appauling. At least like this, you raise the bar, in terms of club's performances, since they need better fitness, better mental strenght, and better alternatives in the squad, to handle the games like others do. Having more teams playing twice a week is a boon, in my oppinion. Plus, it'll raise the revenues clubs get from the Europa League as well, meaning just maybe they won't treat it so much like the 2nd class competition that it is.

 

[Jazz 16]

The financial benefits outweight the negatives by far,
also, teams can play their reserves/youth teams if they
only want to concentrate on the League.

Thats true although playing your reserves/youths can devalue the competition.
Thats why they are bringing in the more lucrative Europa cup to make it a more enticing competition for the clubs and the viewers. Numbers have been WAY down over the last few years with everyone concentrating on the CL, and rightly so. BUt as Sal pointed out in the OP, 23 games is obscene. Its far too much. Teams will nearly want to finish 8th or 9th rather than 6th/7th so they wont have the burden or distraction of a potential 23 games the following season. Saying that, if a team goes on to win it, it can go up there as a fantastic achievement, especially if its a small club (like shitty)

 

[Nachito Coronel]

To be honest I truly hate this uefa/europa league. It just seems pointless. most of the teams dont really try to win the competition, I mean just look at the past winners. If it was up to me why not increase the number of teams getting into the champions to 5 from the top leagues, I just think that would definetely be a better deal for the clubs financially and maybe even better for the overall competitiveness of the the tournament.

 

[Sporting4Ever]

To be honest I truly hate this uefa/europa league. It just seems pointless. most of the teams dont really try to win the competition, I mean just look at the past winners. If it was up to me why not increase the number of teams getting into the champions to 5 from the top leagues, I just think that would definetely be a better deal for the clubs financially and maybe even better for the overall competitiveness of the the tournament.

Yeah, put more teams in from the biggest leagues, THAT'll solve the football problem...:frown:

 

[Nachito Coronel]

Yeah, put more teams in from the biggest leagues, THAT'll solve the football problem...:frown:

youre saying it wouldnt? seriously? youd rather have rosenborg or slavia praha or one of those second class teams over villa, everton, fiorentina or sevilla?

 

[Sporting4Ever]

youre saying it wouldnt? seriously? youd rather have rosenborg or slavia praha or one of those second class teams over villa, everton, fiorentina or sevilla?

Yes, I would.

 

[Nachito Coronel]

Yes, I would.

The fact is with more teams from the top leagues in europe ( italy, spain, England) there wouldn't be such lopsided results in the knockout stages, and certainly no mediocrity in the group stages when you get the scintillating panathinaikos vs steau bucharest.

 

[Sporting4Ever]

The fact is with more teams from the top leagues in europe ( italy, spain, England) there wouldn't be such lopsided results in the knockout stages, and certainly no mediocrity in the group stages when you get the scintillating panathinaikos vs steau bucharest.

So you think the problem with football is solved by further weakening the already weaker teams, and giving more money to the already rich teams...

Well, if that's your objective, yeah, more teams from the bigger leagues will get you there. Just don't be surprised when the day comes where there's no shopping malls to buy your Ronaldos, your Berbatovs, etc.

 

[Nachito Coronel]

So you think the problem with football is solved by further weakening the already weaker teams, and giving more money to the already rich teams...

Well, if that's your objective, yeah, more teams from the bigger leagues will get you there. Just don't be surprised when the day comes where there's no shopping malls to buy your Ronaldos, your Berbatovs, etc.

With current plans to not only get rid of u-18 transfers, but also the 6+5 rule surely teams would produce more from their youth academies no matter what the budget is.

 

[Sporting4Ever]

With current plans to not only get rid of u-18 transfers, but also the 6+5 rule surely teams would produce more from their youth academies no matter what the budget is.

Yeah, IF that happens. Still, the gap between leagues is tremendous. You give even more money to the big leagues, why should the little ones care? Especially when they're gonna sell less...

 

[Nachito Coronel]

Yeah, IF that happens. Still, the gap between leagues is tremendous. You give even more money to the big leagues, why should the little ones care? Especially when they're gonna sell less...

The probability of those two rules happening is extremely great, and the sad fact is that no matter what uefa tries to do to narrow the gap these small leagues still would not have the same appeal as the top leagues just down to the merchandise sold and the television contracts, and for that to change would take years in my opinion.

 

[Sporting4Ever]

The probability of those two rules happening is extremely great, and the sad fact is that no matter what uefa tries to do to narrow the gap these small leagues still would not have the same appeal as the top leagues just down to the merchandise sold and the television contracts, and for that to change would take years in my opinion.

An European Super League isn't the solution. The Champions League is a mockery of it's predecessor. There's countries whitch don't even have their champions in it, and you want teams that end up in 5th to get in? How do you figure that's gonna help football? You want to help football and make it more competitive and sustainable, you need to better support the smaller leagues and clubs, that are so deep in dept and competitiveness that they don't stand a chance against the bigger boys. Because it's all a piramid, mate. If the bottom goes, so does everything above it. The 6+5 is gonna hurt the south american and african clubs, mostly african, because there's already a pretty good set of championships in south america, but most of their income is still from sales to europe. Africa, does anyone know of any african leagues?? They'll probably blossom, but the clubs need to get another source for the cash they got from selling players. In europe, it'll be better, because there won't be so many foreigners, and more national talent will rise, and more talent will stay, since bigger leagues cannot have as many foreigners as they now do. But not every club has formation, and not every club has the means to start it from scratch, or close enough. There's some pretty low impact leagues out there, and the 6+5 will mean nothing to them, except hurt them. Roxii can talk about this a bit, a lot of teams in Malta have tons of foreign players. The 6+5 is pretty much gonna kill leagues like that.

So as you see, you don't solve the problems of football by turning the CL into an elite club. IF the money was more evenly spread than it is, probably, but the simple fact is, unless you get past the group stage, the money isn't that good... If you get past groups, you get more cash than making it to UEFA final. Is that your idea of fair? And you want to widen the gap further still. A last 16 with 4 english, 4 italian, 4 spanish and 4 random teams is already possible. So you want 5 each and 1 random??

Sure, it's more competitive. But you keep screwing the little guys, you're just screwing yourself in the long run.

VDS- Dutch
Evra- French (Senegal)
Ronaldo- Portuguese
Nani- Portuguese
Berbatov- Bulgarian
Vidic- Serbian
Tosic- Serbian
Kukszac- Polish
Zieler- German
Gibson- Irish
O'Shea- Irish

And then there's
Giggs- Welsh
Evans- Northern Irish
Fletcher- Scottish

These are just the european players from outside those 3 leagues. I'm not even counting south americans, africans, aussies or asians.

Those, and a lot more, are the leagues you want to torpedo, if you want more room for the big fish. You can talk about merchandise and TV rights all you want, but in europe, the number of people that spend money on merchandise from the clubs in the 3 big leagues is minimal outside those countries. TV rights cannot dictate how a sport evolves. Football can't be hostage to TV contracts. Does ANYONE like the 19:45 timeslot for CL games? It's clearly designed for TV coverage, not for the public. It means you get little or no time to have dinner, get home, assuming you have an hour ride, at 11, and we know there's people that take much longer, and thursday is a workday for most. Not to mention the away games.

So yeah, if I'm gonna sit on my arse and watch a game on TV, and there's an Inter-United and a Fiorentina-Villarreal, I know what I'm gonna watch.

Except, football isn't a TV sport, and if you want it to continue to exist in all it's glory, it can never be. Because if THAT happens, you're gonna have comercial breaks during the game, time-outs every 5-10 minutes, and a game that lasts 90 minutes is gonna take 3 hours, just like the yanks do it.

Thanks, but no thanks.

 

[Nachito Coronel]

An European Super League isn't the solution. The Champions League is a mockery of it's predecessor. There's countries whitch don't even have their champions in it, and you want teams that end up in 5th to get in? How do you figure that's gonna help football? You want to help football and make it more competitive and sustainable, you need to better support the smaller leagues and clubs, that are so deep in dept and competitiveness that they don't stand a chance against the bigger boys. Because it's all a piramid, mate. If the bottom goes, so does everything above it. The 6+5 is gonna hurt the south american and african clubs, mostly african, because there's already a pretty good set of championships in south america, but most of their income is still from sales to europe. Africa, does anyone know of any african leagues?? They'll probably blossom, but the clubs need to get another source for the cash they got from selling players. In europe, it'll be better, because there won't be so many foreigners, and more national talent will rise, and more talent will stay, since bigger leagues cannot have as many foreigners as they now do. But not every club has formation, and not every club has the means to start it from scratch, or close enough. There's some pretty low impact leagues out there, and the 6+5 will mean nothing to them, except hurt them. Roxii can talk about this a bit, a lot of teams in Malta have tons of foreign players. The 6+5 is pretty much gonna kill leagues like that.

So as you see, you don't solve the problems of football by turning the CL into an elite club. IF the money was more evenly spread than it is, probably, but the simple fact is, unless you get past the group stage, the money isn't that good... If you get past groups, you get more cash than making it to UEFA final. Is that your idea of fair? And you want to widen the gap further still. A last 16 with 4 english, 4 italian, 4 spanish and 4 random teams is already possible. So you want 5 each and 1 random??

Sure, it's more competitive. But you keep screwing the little guys, you're just screwing yourself in the long run.

VDS- Dutch
Evra- French (Senegal)
Ronaldo- Portuguese
Nani- Portuguese
Berbatov- Bulgarian
Vidic- Serbian
Tosic- Serbian
Kukszac- Polish
Zieler- German
Gibson- Irish
O'Shea- Irish

And then there's
Giggs- Welsh
Evans- Northern Irish
Fletcher- Scottish

These are just the european players from outside those 3 leagues. I'm not even counting south americans, africans, aussies or asians.

Those, and a lot more, are the leagues you want to torpedo, if you want more room for the big fish. You can talk about merchandise and TV rights all you want, but in europe, the number of people that spend money on merchandise from the clubs in the 3 big leagues is minimal outside those countries. TV rights cannot dictate how a sport evolves. Football can't be hostage to TV contracts. Does ANYONE like the 19:45 timeslot for CL games? It's clearly designed for TV coverage, not for the public. It means you get little or no time to have dinner, get home, assuming you have an hour ride, at 11, and we know there's people that take much longer, and thursday is a workday for most. Not to mention the away games.

So yeah, if I'm gonna sit on my arse and watch a game on TV, and there's an Inter-United and a Fiorentina-Villarreal, I know what I'm gonna watch.

Except, football isn't a TV sport, and if you want it to continue to exist in all it's glory, it can never be. Because if THAT happens, you're gonna have comercial breaks during the game, time-outs every 5-10 minutes, and a game that lasts 90 minutes is gonna take 3 hours, just like the yanks do it.

Thanks, but no thanks.

I see your point mate but seriously, what can uefa do to help out the little clubs? Ill tell you what nothing because in the end of the day the worldwide appeal each club has is what ultimately determines how much cash it possess and sadly thats what matters in football nowadays. No matter how people would like to even the playing field it is just impossible for it to be successful, just look at how Man city with all that cash have a hard time getting the players they want. Let me ask you this, do you really believe that if uefa were to put a sort of salary cap were everybody has to spend the same amount around europe teams like united or madrid or barca would still not get better players over a team in lets say Malta even if they paid the same in transfer fee and in wages? The fact is sometimes its not all about money its about appeal. Also, Im not saying that we should eliminate smaller clubs you re right teams that are champions in their domestic leagues should be in the tournament now matter where, but why not prolonging it having a bit more teams and just eliminating this mockery that is the uefa cup.

 

[Sporting4Ever]

I see your point mate but seriously, what can uefa do to help out the little clubs? Ill tell you what nothing because in the end of the day the worldwide appeal each club has is what ultimately determines how much cash it possess and sadly thats what matters in football nowadays. No matter how people would like to even the playing field it is just impossible for it to be successful, just look at how Man city with all that cash have a hard time getting the players they want. Let me ask you this, do you really believe that if uefa were to put a sort of salary cap were everybody has to spend the same amount around europe teams like united or madrid or barca would still not get better players over a team in lets say Malta even if they paid the same in transfer fee and in wages? The fact is sometimes its not all about money its about appeal. Also, Im not saying that we should eliminate smaller clubs you re right teams that are champions in their domestic leagues should be in the tournament now matter where, but why not prolonging it having a bit more teams and just eliminating this mockery that is the uefa cup.

Well, the UEFA Cup is gone. Next year, it's a similar format to the CL, called Europa League, with hopefully more money beeing generated by it.

As for appeal, there is that. But don't tell me that players, if they know they'd get the same in england, italy, spain, germany, france, portugal, holland, belgium, they'd be as motivated to leave, because that simply isn't true. Sure, some players want more competitive championships, but the major factor is money. The best payed player here gets about the same as a reserve player in a mid-table club in england. That's the difference. That's why you have players wanting to trade a CL team for a team fighting for relegation.

Besides, if you increase the number of teams in the CL, you either have to change the format, probably to a league style. Either way, there's already a lot of matches per season. 38 league games, 13 CL games, Carling is what, another 5 or 6, FA, 6 or 7, plus charity shield and European super cup, and world club cup. That's almost 70 games per season. 52 weeks in a year, take out 6 to 8 vacation and National Squad duties, that's 44 weeks. That means 3/4ths of the season, you're playing twice a week. That's a lot.

 

[Nachito Coronel]

Well, the UEFA Cup is gone. Next year, it's a similar format to the CL, called Europa League, with hopefully more money beeing generated by it.

As for appeal, there is that. But don't tell me that players, if they know they'd get the same in england, italy, spain, germany, france, portugal, holland, belgium, they'd be as motivated to leave, because that simply isn't true. Sure, some players want more competitive championships, but the major factor is money. The best payed player here gets about the same as a reserve player in a mid-table club in england. That's the difference. That's why you have players wanting to trade a CL team for a team fighting for relegation.

Besides, if you increase the number of teams in the CL, you either have to change the format, probably to a league style. Either way, there's already a lot of matches per season. 38 league games, 13 CL games, Carling is what, another 5 or 6, FA, 6 or 7, plus charity shield and European super cup, and world club cup. That's almost 70 games per season. 52 weeks in a year, take out 6 to 8 vacation and National Squad duties, that's 44 weeks. That means 3/4ths of the season, you're playing twice a week. That's a lot.

I just think the uefa cup really holds no appeal, I mean what can the uefa cup winner claim he has won? then you see teams fielding their b squad and it makes you wonder if maybe the whole competition is just pointless. Thats the reason that I believe that maybe if 5-6 teams in lets say england will have the opportunity to go to european competitions then maybe it should be 5 to the champions league instead of going to waste time in the uefa cup.