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Jazz 16 said:
relatively speaking possibly but cmon you have more sense than that Piazza....to make statements like that.
Making a final is a great achievment in itself.
Really? Cause I consider winning a cup success. Not just being the team that loses and comes the closest out of the other losers. Not saying Juve isn't a great club, I'm just saying, they're less successful abroad then we are. Juve have won a ton of Mickey Mouse trophies abroad, however I hardly think that constitutes them being up there with Real/Bayern/Ajax/Milan/Liverpool :)mad: ) When it comes down to it, Juve have as many European cups as Villa and Red Star Belgrade.

Juve: 2 wins 5 Runners-up
Benfica: 2 wins 5 runners-up

What's the difference?
 

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ejuventus said:
I still consider the other Cups at the same level of Champions; moreover, the UEFA Cup was definitivly strongest and difficult than old Champions' one:
so that, we have 6 won in the last 30 years, more than anybody else.

If we're not successful, nobody is.
Can you be more specific about the 6 cups you've won in last 30 years?
 

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red devil jeff said:
Can you be more specific about the 6 cups you've won in last 30 years?

just go in the previous page,
I already answered your question







piazza said:
Really? Cause I consider winning a cup success. Not just being the team that loses and comes the closest out of the other losers. Not saying Juve isn't a great club, I'm just saying, they're less successful abroad then we are. Juve have won a ton of Mickey Mouse trophies abroad, however I hardly think that constitutes them being up there with Real/Bayern/Ajax/Milan/Liverpool :)mad: ) When it comes down to it, Juve have as many European cups as Villa and Red Star Belgrade.

Juve: 2 wins 5 Runners-up
Benfica: 2 wins 5 runners-up

What's the difference?

I did different posts explaining that, Piazza....... if they're not sufficient to make you understand , ask older your team's supporters.... or also Sir Alex and Giggs, who often have said what they think about JUVE
 

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ejuventus said:
I still consider the other Cups at the same level of Champions; moreover, the UEFA Cup was definitivly strongest and difficult than old Champions' one:
so that, we have 6 won in the last 30 years, more than anybody else.

If we're not successful, nobody is.
Wrong

1970 onwards

Juve

Champions League- 2
Euro cup- 3
cup winners cup- 1

Real Madrid

Champions league- 3
Euro cup- 2
cup winners cup- 2

Liverpool

Champions league- 5
Euro cup- 3

AC Milan

Champions league- 5
Euro cup- 1
cup winners cup- 1

It isn't rocket science to see that Real Madrid, Liverpool and AC Milan all have done better than Juve in European competitons after 1970. Of course if you go before that, then Juve is no where near as successful as the above mentioned clubs except pool perhaps.
 

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ejuventus said:
I did different posts explaining that, Piazza....... if they're not sufficient to make you understand , ask older your team's supporters.... or also Sir Alex and Giggs, who often have said what they think about JUVE
I don't understand this forum sometimes, people are presented with facts, and just can't seem to come to grips with them. Sorry, you support a great club, but they're not really that successful in Europe. Facts are facts. The club I support isn't much more successful. Honestly, you're starting to get a tad delusional.
 

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red devil jeff said:
Wrong

1970 onwards

Juve

Champions League- 2
Euro cup- 3
cup winners cup- 1

Real Madrid

Champions league- 3
Euro cup- 2
cup winners cup- 2

Liverpool

Champions league- 5
Euro cup- 3

AC Milan

Champions league- 5
Euro cup- 1
cup winners cup- 1

It isn't rocket science to see that Real Madrid, Liverpool and AC Milan all have done better than Juve in European competitons after 1970. Of course if you go before that, then Juve is no where near as successful as the above mentioned clubs except pool perhaps.

Wrong, don't make me more lose time, please:

Last 30 years means ........since 1977, if we're not back in 2000

biggest number of Cups: 1° JUVE and Liverpool with 6

biggest numebr of Finals: 1° JUVE and Barça with 11


REAL M. has never won Cup Winners' Cup
AC Milan has never won UEFA Cup, despite tens of partecipations

JUVENTUS in 1985 was the FIRST team to win all 3 big european tournaments.......since then, we were joined only by Ajax and Barça in 2002
But, differently from them, we're still the UNIQUE and ONLY ONE team to have won ALL international tournaments for club recognized from FIFA..... For that reason, we were given the "UEFA plate" which will remain for ever to us..... and we'll be the only one team to win that for ever and ever










piazza said:
I don't understand this forum sometimes, people are presented with facts, and just can't seem to come to grips with them. Sorry, you support a great club, but they're not really that successful in Europe. Facts are facts. The club I support isn't much more successful. Honestly, you're starting to get a tad delusional.

You said: facts are facts.

TO be the team to win biggest number of Cup, and to reach the biggest number of Finals in the last 30 years (not ever, ok?) are facts.

The deductions are consequent


STOP losing time

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ejuventus said:
JUVENTUS in 1985 was the FIRST team to win all 3 big european tournaments.......since then, we were joined only by Ajax and Barça in 2002
I hate to break it to you, but there is only 1, big European tournament. If a big club like United,Juve,Milan,Liverpool,Bayern,Madrid,Barca, etc. were to win the UEFA cup, I have a hard time believing they'd consider that a success, seeing as how they failed to make the Champions League, or in some cases, made that particular tournament yet finished 3rd in their group.

As far as the Cup Winners Cup goes, it was such a massive trophy that its still around right?

When speaking of success in Europe, there's really only one tournament that counts.
 

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piazza said:
I hate to break it to you, but there is only 1, big European tournament. If a big club like United,Juve,Milan,Liverpool,Bayern,Madrid,Barca, etc. were to win the UEFA cup, I have a hard time believing they'd consider that a success, seeing as how they failed to make the Champions League, or in some cases, made that particular tournament yet finished 3rd in their group.

As far as the Cup Winners Cup goes, it was such a massive trophy that its still around right?

When speaking of success in Europe, there's really only one tournament that counts.
I told you piazza,
you're young.,........Try to be more humble, and ask older supporters.


Before new Ch. League, the 3 tournments were ALL very important:
to win whatever of them meant to have a successful season, and to make a piece of history of the club...... In lots of cases, a player won the Balon d'Or just to take his team to the victory in UEFA Cup or Cup Winner's Cup

The old Champios' Cup saw the partecipation only of the first teams in every league: that means we had only 1 english, 1 italian, 1 spanish, 1 german
Consider that almost always 2 of them matched each other, another one could go out ealry because of in-or-out formula......... and at the end we could see only 2 good teams, mixed a poor challengers (from Belgium, Austria, Poland, ecc. )

On the other hand, the old UEFA Cup saw the 2nd, 3th, and 4th of English league, Serie A, Bundesliga, Liga espanola......... much more similar to modern Ch.league than what was the old Champions' Cup........... Moreover UEFA Cup had an extra match, 1 more than old Ch.League

Definitivly, UEFA Cup was much more difficult to win than old Champions' Cup.
Things changed drastically in 1999.

.
 

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ejuventus said:
Last 30 years means ........since 1977, if we're not back in 2000
Why is it so hard for you to acknowledge that other clubs have been more successful than you in the European stage? And whats with this 1977? Whats the significance of this year that makes it any different from 1970? Have there been any major changes in the rules or the way the competition was set up? NO. It's not like it's 1940's or the 1950's where R.Madrid won consecutive European titles. The only reason you've picked 1977 instead of 1970 is that, you can discount the cups won by the other clubs so that you can claim that Juve is the most successful.

At this rate, anyone can prove that their club is the most successful by picking a timeline that best suits their argument. I'm not telling you that Juve is not successful. I'm telling you that there are other clubs who are more successful that Juve. Face it, it is a FACT whether you agree it or not.

You say your club has been awarded by the 'UEFA plate'. UEFA's Badge of Honour is awarded to clubs who reach the very pinnacle of Champion's League success by either winning five European Cups in their history or three consecutively. And teams like Ajax, AC Milan, Bayern Munch, Liverpool and R.Madrid have all got the UEFA badge of honour which is much more prestigious than the UEFA plate. So why don't you just accept that there are other clubs who have been more successful than you? Anyway, i have a feeling that you won't. So i'm gonna do us both a favor and stop arguing about this anymore.
 

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red devil jeff said:
Why is it so hard for you to acknowledge that other clubs have been more successful than you in the European stage? And whats with this 1977? Whats the significance of this year that makes it any different from 1970? Have there been any major changes in the rules or the way the competition was set up? NO. It's not like it's 1940's or the 1950's where R.Madrid won consecutive European titles. The only reason you've picked 1977 instead of 1970 is that, you can discount the cups won by the other clubs so that you can claim that Juve is the most successful.

At this rate, anyone can prove that their club is the most successful by picking a timeline that best suits their argument. I'm not telling you that Juve is not successful. I'm telling you that there are other clubs who are more successful that Juve. Face it, it is a FACT whether you agree it or not.

You say your club has been awarded by the 'UEFA plate'. UEFA's Badge of Honour is awarded to clubs who reach the very pinnacle of Champion's League success by either winning five European Cups in their history or three consecutively. And teams like Ajax, AC Milan, Bayern Munch, Liverpool and R.Madrid have all got the UEFA badge of honour which is much more prestigious than the UEFA plate. So why don't you just accept that there are other clubs who have been more successful than you? Anyway, i have a feeling that you won't. So i'm gonna do us both a favor and stop arguing about this anymore.

I replayed to who affirmed that JUVE is not a successful team in Europe taking for example the last 30 years of European Cups. ...... Why the last 30 years ??

1) it's a sufficient (because large) and meaning (because not referring to the an ancient past) laspe of time
2) it's the time in which european cups have got what we know today: sponsor and TV arrived, players and teams started to see in them the best chance to get visibility and money........ It wasn't like that at all during '50s, while in '60 things just started to change.

3) it's the time of my life, so I talk about something I have a direct knowledge



After my note, you criticized, but not properly, so I correct you.

Now what do you say: Ajax is more successful in Europe than JUVE because of 4 Ch.League, as well as Bayern M. ???........It's useless to say it: just have a look at the palmares and you can easily realize.


But .... do you know in Italy who are the 4th, 5th and 6th teams more successful (after JUVE, Milan, Inter ) ??....guess............. Ok, I told you:


Genoa with 9 titles
Pro Vercelli :)eek: ) and Torino with 7

Would you say Pro Vercelli is much more successful in Italy than Rome or Lazio ??
I don't think.



Anyway, it's ok to stop the arguement


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Discussion Starter · #151 ·
Cluj just equalised at Chelsea :eek: They arent a bad team actually.
We need Bordeaux to beat Roma and I think Chelsea could go out if scores
stay the same...I think, the permutations are a bit tricky for this group.
Cmon Cluj!!!
 

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Jazz 16 said:
Cluj just equalised at Chelsea :eek: They arent a bad team actually.
We need Bordeaux to beat Roma and I think Chelsea could go out if scores
stay the same...I think, the permutations are a bit tricky for this group.
Cmon Cluj!!!
Cluj have been the better side

Roma have just scored :mad:

 

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It would probably be better if Chelsea got through, otherwise they can just concentrate on the league, would be funny to see them go out though, looking very unlikely now though.

Pool are 2-1 up as well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #155 ·
Roma 2-0 Bordeaux
Chelsea 2-1 Cluj

Roma finish ahead of Chelsea :D
Lets hope we get Roma in the next round and that Chelsea get Barcelona :)
 

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Jazz 16 said:
Roma 2-0 Bordeaux
Chelsea 2-1 Cluj

Roma finish ahead of Chelsea :D
Lets hope we get Roma in the next round and that Chelsea get Barcelona :)
So by saying that, we lose to Aalborg tomorrow?

Or would that be for nostalgia sake only?

Either way, if Liverpool win their group, then can we just get Chelsea v. Liverpool out of the way now?
 
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Results Tuesday, 9 December 2008
UEFA Champions League

Barcelona 2-3 Shakhtar Donetsk
Basle 0-1 Sporting
Chelsea 2-1 CFR 1907 Cluj-Napoca
Marseille 0-0 Atletico Madrid
Panathinaikos 1-0 Anorthosis Famagusta
PSV 1-3 Liverpool
Roma 2-0 Bordeaux
Werder Bremen 2-1 Inter Milan


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The 1st 4 groups are decided, the qualified are:

Group A
1º Roma
2º Chelsea

Group B
1º Panathinaikos
2º Inter

Group C
1º Barcelona
2º Sporting

Group D
1º Liverpool
2º Atlético


Bordeaux, Shaktar, Werder Bremen and Marseille go to the UEFA
 
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