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most united fans were against the takeover..but after the money they have spent..are you happy to have them running manchester united?...or do you feel a football club should be owned by its fans...thoughts?
the glazers...?
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I am happy, looking at there record there is no reason for worry!
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SALFORD RED
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First of all mate can i point out that the glazers have not spent one penny of their money on anything.mikeybhoy71 said:most united fans were against the takeover..but after the money they have spent..are you happy to have them running manchester united?...or do you feel a football club should be owned by its fans...thoughts?
No, not happy to have them running the club.
Why, 3 years ago United debt = 0.
Glazer takeover , United debt = £600m+, with £65m interest every year to pay on that debt.
Football clubs should be owned by the fans but very much doubt it would work for the top flight clubs.
We've gone over a lot of this before mate, though you probably never saw it. http://www.manutdtalk.com/forums/man-utd-chat/2378-have-we-over-spent-no.html
Personally, dont really want to get into it all over again.
.
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as a celtic and unted fanatic,i agree with you mate,i have shares in celtic,and i would have a wee share in unted as well,i believe that fans should own clubs,but the glazers deny us fans the right,they have sraddled utd with a massive debt,fans will be swayed by the fact that they have spent £50million,but it dont wash with me..they are not utd fans...never will be either...utd belong to the fans...always have...always will doSALFORD RED said:
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Bloody Celtic fansmikeybhoy71 said:as a celtic and unted fanatic,i agree with you mate,i have shares in celtic,and i would have a wee share in unted as well,i believe that fans should own clubs,but the glazers deny us fans the right,they have sraddled utd with a massive debt,fans will be swayed by the fact that they have spent £50million,but it dont wash with me..they are not utd fans...never will be either...utd belong to the fans...always have...always will do
Your being a bit negitive mate. Glazers may have put us in debt, but they've done a good job running the club, the reason for this isthey havn't changed anything.mikeybhoy71 said:as a celtic and unted fanatic,i agree with you mate,i have shares in celtic,and i would have a wee share in unted as well,i believe that fans should own clubs,but the glazers deny us fans the right,they have sraddled utd with a massive debt,fans will be swayed by the fact that they have spent £50million,but it dont wash with me..they are not utd fans...never will be either...utd belong to the fans...always have...always will do
Look at the positives, now united don't have to announce any offers for players, so Chelski can come in and take him away.
IF your thats annoyed go p**s off to Fc united or whatever the hell there calling themselves.
1. Don't look at "their record" - they have no record to speak of.
2. I am a member of MUST, the Manchester United Supporters Trust - we are saving money for the day when WE will either buy them out, or rescue United when they crash.
3. The Glazers are doing nothing in the actual running of the club, Fergie does that. What they do is sit on the board talking about how to raise X amount to repay the starving banks they borrowed from. All the money United "make" emanates from the lads on the field, turnstile money, merchandise and marketting. Without Fergie, the Glazers would lose everything and they know it.
The ONE positive side is that we are no longer a bloody PLC - thats good!!
2. I am a member of MUST, the Manchester United Supporters Trust - we are saving money for the day when WE will either buy them out, or rescue United when they crash.
3. The Glazers are doing nothing in the actual running of the club, Fergie does that. What they do is sit on the board talking about how to raise X amount to repay the starving banks they borrowed from. All the money United "make" emanates from the lads on the field, turnstile money, merchandise and marketting. Without Fergie, the Glazers would lose everything and they know it.
The ONE positive side is that we are no longer a bloody PLC - thats good!!
So now your a bloody super hero.Red Devil said:
Your point number two, i particular like the part where you brag about how you think your being the best fan in the world. It one of the good things they do idiot. We didn't want anything to change in terms of the running of the club. They may be thinking of ways to make cash, but thats the idea of paying off the debt.
They plan to win the league, so they're ask SAF if there is any need to add to the squad. If yes, who and how much.
The big bold writting. Well done, you've figures out how a football club is run. If we didn't have SAF, you WOULDN'T find that the Glazer have been giving away tickets for free, or standing outside giving out free merchandise.
What make you so sure, when you "Recue the club"( Not broke, don't fix it), you'll be so great. It a big job and you havn't figured that out because your to busy picking out a suit for that day you've been dreaming of. WAKE up call, It only ever going to be a dream.
Got alot of my chest.
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dovorian said:So now your a bloody super hero.
Your point number two, i particular like the part where you brag about how you think your being the best fan in the world. It one of the good things they do idiot. We didn't want anything to change in terms of the running of the club. They may be thinking of ways to make cash, but thats the idea of paying off the debt.
They plan to win the league, so they're ask SAF if there is any need to add to the squad. If yes, who and how much.
The big bold writting. Well done, you've figures out how a football club is run. If we didn't have SAF, you WOULDN'T find that the Glazer have been giving away tickets for free, or standing outside giving out free merchandise.
What make you so sure, when you "Recue the club"( Not broke, don't fix it), you'll be so great. It a big job and you havn't figured that out because your to busy picking out a suit for that day you've been dreaming of. WAKE up call, It only ever going to be a dream.
Got alot of my chest.
that was a bit rudeI hate the glazor stuff, people like them are turning football into a buissness and not a sport, i think who ever owns man utd should have a passion for football, a love for the club and not just want to make some cash.
i agree and i thank them for what theyve done with Nani, Anderson and Hargreaves, but thats thanks to SAF and i think if we dont win the prem this season Glazer will flip at SAF
Got to be rude to get all your attention. I know you won't change your mind, but the people who Love man utd don't won't a bunch of morons who would have never run a club, or anything near it. You all thing your doing all united supporters a favour. Your not. Do i care what you think, NO! I care about you morons get your hands anywere near united. The day you do, is the day united truely crash and burn. All your dreams will become a reality, but its not a dream, is it. IF you ever make it, you will cock it up. I don't want you or anyone else to but, im not guessing you will, but you WILL. Rude enough??????????
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Red Devil said:1. Don't look at "their record" - they have no record to speak of.
2. I am a member of MUST, the Manchester United Supporters Trust - we are saving money for the day when WE will either buy them out, or rescue United when they crash.
3. The Glazers are doing nothing in the actual running of the club, Fergie does that. What they do is sit on the board talking about how to raise X amount to repay the starving banks they borrowed from. All the money United "make" emanates from the lads on the field, turnstile money, merchandise and marketting. Without Fergie, the Glazers would lose everything and they know it.
The ONE positive side is that we are no longer a bloody PLC - thats good!![/QUOTE]
Do actually look at their record and tell me if you can find one club, Business that the Glazers let go bust! GO ON - LOOK AND TELL ME! Go reseach every Company and club they have owned and see if one of them has gone bust DUE to the Glazers !!!
Yet if United aren't owned by the Glazers, that means United are a PLC - O you
aren't happy with that either. Delighted to see you figured how the club is run.
You are a member of the MUST, Jeez can't put an arguement to Red Devil now.
Why he is sure special ....
Well some can never be happy!
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Wakey wakey......football has always been a business !!man.utd.singh said:
I hate the glazor stuff, people like them are turning football into a buissness and not a sport, i think who ever owns man utd should have a passion for football, a love for the club and not just want to make some cash.
i agree and i thank them for what theyve done with Nani, Anderson and Hargreaves, but thats thanks to SAF and i think if we dont win the prem this season Glazer will flip at SAF
You don't ask for much in who owns United either do you ?
Just a fanatic fan who has support them all his/her life, has a passion for United and is willing and able to invest £1 billion pounds and not care if they get it back !!! Hmmmmmmm.......not many people in Manchester will fit these demands sorry !!
Nani, Hargreaves, Anderson and Tevez is thanks to SAF ????
Whatever !!!
If Glazer say no to buying them - then they don't buy them - simple fact !!
Nothing to do with SAF !!
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I wish they'd never taken over, they've not spent their own money anyway. A club should be owned by supporters who care about the team.
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SALFORD RED
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Some plain and simple FACTS for the ones who continue to bury their heads in the sand.
UNITED DEBT STORM
Exclusive by David Harrison & Rob Beasley
FRESH financial strife awaits Manchester United tomorrow when a damning fans' report accuses the Glazers of running up a £100million interest bill this year.
The Independent United Supporters Trust insist the £660m debt started by the club's American owners is spiralling out of control and is now "a ticking time-bomb".
And in a statement to be released to the City tomorrow, the Trust claim:
The club's interest payments have INCREASED by a staggering £28m this year.
The Glazer family have passed on rising costs by HIKING ticket prices by nearly 50 per cent.
Some fans are taking LEGAL action.
Other supporters have been FORCED to give up their season tickets.
Owner Malcolm Glazer seems to have sunk the Red Devils so deeply into the red following his £790m takeover in 2005 that even leading City financiers believe his only lifeline is to sell up.
Trust spokesman Oliver Houston declared: "The Glazers got very lucky with the increased television revenue and the new shirt sponsorship deal with AIG.
"But people should realise this extra money is being used merely to service the debt. The Glazers have not put any money in at all for new players. A lot has been made of the £50m transfer fees spent in the summer but this all came out of club funds and is being financed on the never-never.
"The simple fact is prices are going up — not just season tickets but car parking, catering, everything."
And the Trust statement claims: "Despite appearances to the contrary, the Glazer family continue to face an extraordinary and growing debt problem. Since last year's debt refinancing, United and the Glazers have been faced with a series of interest rate rises which have increased the annual debt service bill from £62m a year on the total debt of £660m.
"The interest bill is currently an annualised £100m-plus, of which £73m is payable this year and the other £27m in the future — a ticking debt time-bomb.
"The recent and continuing turmoil in financial markets has not only forced the Glazers to postpone indefinitely any further refinancing but has also seen the six-month LIBOR rate (the variable inter-bank lending rate to which the United debt is undoubtedly tied) increase to almost one per cent above the bank base rate.
"Today it stands at 6.69 per cent, driving up the annual cost of servicing United's debt to painful pre-refinancing levels. No wonder, for the third season running, the Glazers forced the club to pass on this eye-watering extra finance cost to the fans by way of a 14 per cent ticket price rise.
"This has forced many fans to give up their season tickets. They are unable to afford the latest hike, which represents a compound increase since the takeover of approximately 50 per cent.
"This has caused such a negative reaction from loyal fans priced out of Old Trafford that, for the first time in a generation, season tickets have not sold out and the much-vaunted waiting list has disappeared.
"And some angry supporters are taking legal action against the club over the new Automatic Cup Scheme (which requires all season-ticket holders to pay for all cup games — whether they want to go or not) and the unfair way it was introduced."
We probed the Americans in a bid to unravel United's financial structure. But they politely refused our request to shed light on the deepening concerns about the club's future in the climate of a global credit crisis.
The Trust reports the debt is split into five separate loans.
The first loan of £75m was borrowed over seven years at a current interest rate of 8.81 per cent — producing annual interest bill of £6.61m.
The second of £150m, borrowed over eight years at a current interest rate of 9.31 per cent, produces interest of £13.97m. The third, also of £150m, over nine years at 9.69 per cent, is running up an annual interest bill of £14.53m.
Another 10-year £150m loan at 12.19 per cent is producing £18.28m annual interest, while the final £135m "Payment in Kind" loan is costing £23.3m in interest, although it is not payable this year.
On top of that, City experts estimate United will pay at least another £24m in capital repayments, bringing the total to more than £100m.
A City expert told us: "The problem is the Glazers have entered a deal which meant they put very little money in but have taken on a lot of debt. They are clearly looking at all kinds of securitization, like future season ticket sales to raise cash immediately and cut the debt.
"In today's climate, it is clear with these levels of borrowing at such high interest rates, the Glazers need to do something dramatic and quickly. There are really only two options — to somehow get the cost of the borrowing down or sell the club."
And the Trust statement continued: "Taking the figures from the July 2006 refinancing documents, copies of which we have seen, we have calculated United's current interest and debt service bill.
"Due to recent turmoil in the markets and cumulative interest rate rises since July 2006, the total annualised debt cost to Manchester United has hit £100m for the first time since the takeover in 2005."
UNITED DEBT STORM
Exclusive by David Harrison & Rob Beasley
FRESH financial strife awaits Manchester United tomorrow when a damning fans' report accuses the Glazers of running up a £100million interest bill this year.
The Independent United Supporters Trust insist the £660m debt started by the club's American owners is spiralling out of control and is now "a ticking time-bomb".
And in a statement to be released to the City tomorrow, the Trust claim:
The club's interest payments have INCREASED by a staggering £28m this year.
The Glazer family have passed on rising costs by HIKING ticket prices by nearly 50 per cent.
Some fans are taking LEGAL action.
Other supporters have been FORCED to give up their season tickets.
Owner Malcolm Glazer seems to have sunk the Red Devils so deeply into the red following his £790m takeover in 2005 that even leading City financiers believe his only lifeline is to sell up.
Trust spokesman Oliver Houston declared: "The Glazers got very lucky with the increased television revenue and the new shirt sponsorship deal with AIG.
"But people should realise this extra money is being used merely to service the debt. The Glazers have not put any money in at all for new players. A lot has been made of the £50m transfer fees spent in the summer but this all came out of club funds and is being financed on the never-never.
"The simple fact is prices are going up — not just season tickets but car parking, catering, everything."
And the Trust statement claims: "Despite appearances to the contrary, the Glazer family continue to face an extraordinary and growing debt problem. Since last year's debt refinancing, United and the Glazers have been faced with a series of interest rate rises which have increased the annual debt service bill from £62m a year on the total debt of £660m.
"The interest bill is currently an annualised £100m-plus, of which £73m is payable this year and the other £27m in the future — a ticking debt time-bomb.
"The recent and continuing turmoil in financial markets has not only forced the Glazers to postpone indefinitely any further refinancing but has also seen the six-month LIBOR rate (the variable inter-bank lending rate to which the United debt is undoubtedly tied) increase to almost one per cent above the bank base rate.
"Today it stands at 6.69 per cent, driving up the annual cost of servicing United's debt to painful pre-refinancing levels. No wonder, for the third season running, the Glazers forced the club to pass on this eye-watering extra finance cost to the fans by way of a 14 per cent ticket price rise.
"This has forced many fans to give up their season tickets. They are unable to afford the latest hike, which represents a compound increase since the takeover of approximately 50 per cent.
"This has caused such a negative reaction from loyal fans priced out of Old Trafford that, for the first time in a generation, season tickets have not sold out and the much-vaunted waiting list has disappeared.
"And some angry supporters are taking legal action against the club over the new Automatic Cup Scheme (which requires all season-ticket holders to pay for all cup games — whether they want to go or not) and the unfair way it was introduced."
We probed the Americans in a bid to unravel United's financial structure. But they politely refused our request to shed light on the deepening concerns about the club's future in the climate of a global credit crisis.
The Trust reports the debt is split into five separate loans.
The first loan of £75m was borrowed over seven years at a current interest rate of 8.81 per cent — producing annual interest bill of £6.61m.
The second of £150m, borrowed over eight years at a current interest rate of 9.31 per cent, produces interest of £13.97m. The third, also of £150m, over nine years at 9.69 per cent, is running up an annual interest bill of £14.53m.
Another 10-year £150m loan at 12.19 per cent is producing £18.28m annual interest, while the final £135m "Payment in Kind" loan is costing £23.3m in interest, although it is not payable this year.
On top of that, City experts estimate United will pay at least another £24m in capital repayments, bringing the total to more than £100m.
A City expert told us: "The problem is the Glazers have entered a deal which meant they put very little money in but have taken on a lot of debt. They are clearly looking at all kinds of securitization, like future season ticket sales to raise cash immediately and cut the debt.
"In today's climate, it is clear with these levels of borrowing at such high interest rates, the Glazers need to do something dramatic and quickly. There are really only two options — to somehow get the cost of the borrowing down or sell the club."
And the Trust statement continued: "Taking the figures from the July 2006 refinancing documents, copies of which we have seen, we have calculated United's current interest and debt service bill.
"Due to recent turmoil in the markets and cumulative interest rate rises since July 2006, the total annualised debt cost to Manchester United has hit £100m for the first time since the takeover in 2005."
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The two options available to the Glazers must make you happy man Sal...
They have to force the interest rates down - which is impossible !!
Which mean they will HAVE to sell up !!!
But I don't think that will make people happy either.
So what now ?
What would make YOU happy ?
I only ask from interest because you seem to know more about all this than everyone else here
They have to force the interest rates down - which is impossible !!
Which mean they will HAVE to sell up !!!
But I don't think that will make people happy either.
So what now ?
What would make YOU happy ?
I only ask from interest because you seem to know more about all this than everyone else here
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there aint much i can do other than buy the shirt, debt - 50 quid
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SALFORD RED
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No Car the two options do NOT make me a happy man.carlyluvsunited said:The two options available to the Glazers must make you happy man Sal...
They have to force the interest rates down - which is impossible !!
Which mean they will HAVE to sell up !!!
But I don't think that will make people happy either.
So what now ?
What would make YOU happy ?
I only ask from interest because you seem to know more about all this than everyone else here
What would ? MUFC owned by the fans. ( but thats very unliely to be anything other than a dream ).
And i don't know more about this than anyone else, i just go to other places, read up on MY clubs dealings, listen/read real facts and figures and post relative information in threads for people to read for themselfs.
If you are happy with nearly a 50% rise over three years in the price of season tickets, along with every other increase then thats probably because YOU dont have to pay it as you dont have a season ticket or attend more than a couple of games a season.
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I would say the fact you - go to other places, read upSALFORD RED said:
on YOUR clubs dealings, listen/read real facts and figures and post relative
information in threads for people to read......would make you the most
knowledgable on here....but if you say you are not then this is ok - I was making
compliment for you but no matter.
The option for fans owning the club doesn't exist...never will.
You only have 2 choice and you don't like either ! So this make me think you can
now never be happy as United fan !! I stop doing things that make me not
happy.
I know the people who have season tickets and go to match day regular feel they
are better than those of us who don't have these opportunities.....but if we
ignore this for a moment I see it this way for me.
Yes people have been going for 40 years or whatever and they make loyal fan of
course but people need to move with the times - prices go up - ALL prices go up.
If a man drive Aston Martin car like loyal fan for 40 years and he pay £1000 for his
first car - Aston Martin don't make special deal for him so he get car for £1000 all
the time !!! No, no, no he pay £110,000 like everyone else - the price has gone
up !!
I think United price for ticket is average for Prem League - cheaper than some
even. You say 50% rise is too much - but if you like to pay £22 then you can go
to see Hartlepool or Grimsby........you get this premium team like United then
price is premium too !!
If the Glazers ran away tomorrow and leave this debt - do you really think there
will be not one person to step up and take over the club ? They will queue down
the street maybe round the corner too !!!
This club is worth maybe more than £1 billion now !! And turnover for business is
approaching the same figure !! This business turnover will double in 5 years !!
Would I pay £1 billion for United even with this debt ? You bet I would because I
would make my money back very quick I think !!
This is not Leeds or Bristol City - this is 100 times bigger than the whole Div 1
added together !!
I don't know...........all this nonsense is dividing the fans and it makes me wonder
who is who in this whole issue to be honest.
S
SALFORD RED
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I took it as a copmliment as well but i honestly think there are also others who understand things better and have more information than i have.
With regards to price rise, i hear what you say ALL prices do rise, but NOT by 50% in three years. Inflation has probably gone up 10% and wages by 15% over three years, so how can the average man in the street afford to pay 50% extra on anything...simply he can't.....result.....fans priced out
I mentioned season ticket holders, not as a "i'm a better red" card, but to say people who do not buy them cannot say they are happy about the price.
If university fees went up to a million pounds a year, would i bother? No because i dont go so wouldn't have to pay out. But i'd still be happy because universities are great.
Yes if you want the best you have to pay top prices, but EVERYTHING has got a limit.
Out of curiosity what is the top price you would pay for one ticket to one game, the very highest you would be willing to pay ?
I understand why you need this comfort blanket. Really, I do. But it won't do you, or any of us, or - most importantly - the club any good at all to perpetuate this state of denial based on the notion that if we don't know the exact details, we should simply assume that nothing is wrong at all.
The debt is a fact. The scale of the debt is a fact. The interest payments are a fact. The price rises are a fact. The unavailability of a set of 2007 accounts (as I understand it, they don't have to be filed until the middle of next year anyway; and even so, they will only show the accounts for the club itself and not for the holding company, which is what really matters) does nothing to alter these facts. Your wilful denial does nothing to alter them either. This problem isn't going to go away.
With regards to price rise, i hear what you say ALL prices do rise, but NOT by 50% in three years. Inflation has probably gone up 10% and wages by 15% over three years, so how can the average man in the street afford to pay 50% extra on anything...simply he can't.....result.....fans priced out
I mentioned season ticket holders, not as a "i'm a better red" card, but to say people who do not buy them cannot say they are happy about the price.
If university fees went up to a million pounds a year, would i bother? No because i dont go so wouldn't have to pay out. But i'd still be happy because universities are great.
Yes if you want the best you have to pay top prices, but EVERYTHING has got a limit.
Out of curiosity what is the top price you would pay for one ticket to one game, the very highest you would be willing to pay ?
I understand why you need this comfort blanket. Really, I do. But it won't do you, or any of us, or - most importantly - the club any good at all to perpetuate this state of denial based on the notion that if we don't know the exact details, we should simply assume that nothing is wrong at all.
The debt is a fact. The scale of the debt is a fact. The interest payments are a fact. The price rises are a fact. The unavailability of a set of 2007 accounts (as I understand it, they don't have to be filed until the middle of next year anyway; and even so, they will only show the accounts for the club itself and not for the holding company, which is what really matters) does nothing to alter these facts. Your wilful denial does nothing to alter them either. This problem isn't going to go away.
S
SALFORD RED
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I also meant to post this in case anyone wants them.
They provide details of the debt strucutre as at the time of these accounts.
The latest set of accounts for Manchester United Limited -
http://www.chriselkins.co.uk/files/mu_ltd_2006_acts.pdf
The latest set of accounts for Red Football Junior -
http://www.chriselkins.co.uk/files/R...mited_2006.pdf
The latest set of accounts for Red Football Joint Venture Limited -
http://www.chriselkins.co.uk/files/R...mited_2006.pdf
The latest set of accounts for Red Football Limited -
http://www.chriselkins.co.uk/files/R...mited_2006.pdf
If you have any doubts over their authenticity (I categorically state they are fully genuine), copies can be purchased from Companies House for a small fee.
They provide details of the debt strucutre as at the time of these accounts.
The latest set of accounts for Manchester United Limited -
http://www.chriselkins.co.uk/files/mu_ltd_2006_acts.pdf
The latest set of accounts for Red Football Junior -
http://www.chriselkins.co.uk/files/R...mited_2006.pdf
The latest set of accounts for Red Football Joint Venture Limited -
http://www.chriselkins.co.uk/files/R...mited_2006.pdf
The latest set of accounts for Red Football Limited -
http://www.chriselkins.co.uk/files/R...mited_2006.pdf
If you have any doubts over their authenticity (I categorically state they are fully genuine), copies can be purchased from Companies House for a small fee.
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