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There is no Noxiousd, only ZUUL
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ManUtd08 said:
no man lol portmouth suck
No, they dont, with players like Distin, James, Muntari, Kranjcar and Defoe they look promising, especially for next year when teams like Villa and Spurs will also do brilliant...
 

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just wish carlos wouldnt make excuses when we lose, we have no divine right to win every game ,the portsmouth game was just one of them days and you have to take it on the chin
 

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Keano4taoiseach said:
Are you sure? We beat them 3-0 this season.

positive mate we actually beat them 2-0 at Ot this season. The only teams to do the double on us last season were West Ham & arsenal. Trust me my friends call me Statto!!:D

Red Devil said:
Every time United lose, and its about 4-5 unnecessary defeats a season, they come back after some teacups are thrown but it always comes around again, and again, and again.

United are victims of their own success basically. They go into many games believing its already won 3 points in the bag, another cup round past - yet time and time again, we get shown up and the ABU's have a field day for a few hours.

Until the players get it mentally right, we will continue to lose stupid games each season and I include the Manager in that. When he stops picking teams for the game AFTER next we will do better.

Bill Shankly once said that the most important game of his life was the next one - the one after that does not come into the equation. Thats why he was such a successful manager both at Huddersfield and at Liverpool. It is also why his successor was so successful too, he adopted the same policy.

United most important game is not Chelski away or Arsenal at home or who we draw on Friday - its Derby County and they are next.
agree 100% -excellent post mate.Lets not get ahead of ourselvdes in talking about doubles or trebles-we have to treat every tesam and the next game with the utmost respect. Fergie goes on that we like to make things difficult for ourselves and it now its become a tires old cliche. I have a feeling if Mourinho was still managing the renties we wouldnt be losing carelessly to teams like Bolton and West Ham as gthe bar would definitely be raised ,.heres hoping no more unprofessional performances;)
 

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Red Devil said:
Every time United lose, and its about 4-5 unnecessary defeats a season, they come back after some teacups are thrown but it always comes around again, and again, and again.

United are victims of their own success basically. They go into many games believing its already won 3 points in the bag, another cup round past - yet time and time again, we get shown up and the ABU's have a field day for a few hours.

Until the players get it mentally right, we will continue to lose stupid games each season and I include the Manager in that. When he stops picking teams for the game AFTER next we will do better.

Bill Shankly once said that the most important game of his life was the next one - the one after that does not come into the equation. Thats why he was such a successful manager both at Huddersfield and at Liverpool. It is also why his successor was so successful too, he adopted the same policy.

United most important game is not Chelski away or Arsenal at home or who we draw on Friday - its Derby County and they are next.
I am sure you know I share your sentiments on this aspect.

Sad but true, we are good but not great. A great team should not have such roller-coaster results, capable of beating the top teams but being done a double by Citeh and in West Ham's case, 2 seasons in a trot, or worse, lose to rock-bottom teams in the table like Wolves and Sunderland some seasons ago.

A great team I witnessed, at least for me only, was unfortunately the great Liverpool team in the 80s. Week in, week out, they did their job cleanly and majestically, if not, at least clinically. Yes, they did lose once in a blue moon only but you will not see this type of wild swings of results that drive the fans crazy along with it.

Maybe Bill Shankly was right afterall.
 

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Was The Portsmouth Defeat A Good Reality Check ?

Not at all, we played well that day but it's just wasn't our day. We lost a crucial match that puts us out of FA Cup but let's move on from here is what that matters now. Recently we have been hit with many unwanted critics, I believed the next few matches is crucial for us, it's either we silence it all or we might end up not winning anything.
 

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the start of the season was horrible then we got a little lucky with 2 or 3 mathces.....and then we were flying high and then back in the dump with the bolton game and then back again and then down again against west ham......then we go up in the rest few games and lose against man city....then we started geting the results we needed and now the pompey game......i think the pompey game was a reality check...they are a good team but we beat spurs,villa and arsenal on the way to this and they are all better than pompey.....now we have to put our concentration on the Uefa Champions League and premier league and hope for the best.....
 

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versa said:
I am sure you know I share your sentiments on this aspect.

Sad but true, we are good but not great. A great team should not have such roller-coaster results, capable of beating the top teams but being done a double by Citeh and in West Ham's case, 2 seasons in a trot, or worse, lose to rock-bottom teams in the table like Wolves and Sunderland some seasons ago.

A great team I witnessed, at least for me only, was unfortunately the great Liverpool team in the 80s. Week in, week out, they did their job cleanly and majestically, if not, at least clinically. Yes, they did lose once in a blue moon only but you will not see this type of wild swings of results that drive the fans crazy along with it.

Maybe Bill Shankly was right afterall.
Firstly you mentioned Liverpool's team of the 80', which unfortunately
I remember well also. That period was an entirely different generation.
There was a big gulf then between Liverpool and basically the rest.
The standard these days is much higher and there are better players
playing for each team. So in a way i believe its harder to win now,
though we only seem to slip up against 'smaller teams'....

Rd made the initial point that you and Ferg agreed on, but I have to
disagree to some extent. bad days do happen and we cant win every
single game on the bounce, its impossible.
And anyway we have no divine right to win each one either.
The West Ham and City doubles against us and other poor results will
happen to every team most years. We cant always get that bit of luck
to win us games or somedays we just arent at the races.
It happens a lot and there are many factors in deciding a game.
 

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I don't know what people mean by reality check may be it is just me being thick but if we kept winning we wouldn't need one and then we get one whenever a result did not go our way.

And surely the City game was the wake up call, we deserved to lose. Against Portsmouth we hammered them, one of the most one sided games I've seen - but that happens anyone remember Blackburn with Brad Friedel stopping us getting the desired win, and the 0-0 against Sunderland at OT a few years ago when Sunderland were on the way to being the worst premiership team. And of course Arsenal in the FA cup final when we lost on penalties.

It could have been 4 or 5 may be more against Portsmouth if we play that well until the end of the season I think you will see at least one trophy on the OT mantelpiece at the end of the season.
 

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Jazz 16 said:
Firstly you mentioned Liverpool's team of the 80', which unfortunately
I remember well also. That period was an entirely different generation.
There was a big gulf then between Liverpool and basically the rest.
The standard these days is much higher and there are better players
playing for each team. So in a way i believe its harder to win now,
though we only seem to slip up against 'smaller teams'....

Rd made the initial point that you and Ferg agreed on, but I have to
disagree to some extent. bad days do happen and we cant win every
single game on the bounce, its impossible.
And anyway we have no divine right to win each one either.
The West Ham and City doubles against us and other poor results will
happen to every team most years. We cant always get that bit of luck
to win us games or somedays we just arent at the races.
It happens a lot and there are many factors in deciding a game.
I fully agree with you that the great Liverpool team of the 80s were in a different generation and setting from the current. And yes, there was indeed an undeniable gulf between them and the rest. Anybody who has seen that team will have no alternative but begrudgingly agree too, at the least. Week in week out they deliver the goods.... the defence led by Alan Hansen was impregnable, Graeme Souness was a monster in the middle of the park...... Steve Highway, David Johnson...... Ian Rush.....

But don't get me wrong. By no means am I trying to indulge in reminiscence about them nor do I mean to say that a great team are one that must clobber every team that cross their path. Of course in reality, they didn't overwhelm always but when they could not win emphatically, they won by grit and clinical efficiency, always managing to dig hard to find that little bit more of resolve or an extra ounce of energy from somewhere in their deeper recesses, somehow or rather, to grind out a result in whatever circumstance they were in. Whether they had a bad day or not, whether the referee had a bad day or not, whether they had luck or not, they "turned up". A model example of what a great team is all about in my honest opinion - insatiable desire and iron will coupled with workman-like consistency.

Fast forward to the modern era. It is true that things have changed dramatically with the money-intruded modern football. Clubs can now afford to spend and attempt to buy instant success by stockpiling talents from all over the globe, with the omnipresent scouts gladly at their services, combing the earth and leaving no stone unturned for the next big Superstar. Yes, money can indeed close gaps and buy quality; just look at Chelski winning the EPL immediately from nowhere in sight. It is thus true also that any victory now is not a given but hard fought due to the narrowing of standards as compared to in the past.

And of course too, there are many factors to the outcome of a game, generally speaking, extrinsic factors such as one of those days, the referee had a bad game, the lack of luck etc, and intrinsic factors such as the mental makeup, psychology or perhaps even culture.

Well and fine for now.

So granted similar quality and standards of players amongst the top teams who have similar spending power, ceteris paribus, my next question is what really separates the winner from the also-ran then? Or what really separates a great team from a good team? And are we a great team?

My opinion at this point in time about our current squad is, well, simply no. Not yet. We are a good team but not a great team.

A classic example is the emotional game against Citeh in conjunction with the commemoration of the Munich Disaster. After all the chest-pumping and war cries from staff and players alike, what we had instead was only a crying shame. And the explanation was the pathetic and infamous "we just didn't turn up." So now therein lies the saliant point. If our players were unable to turn up (giving them the benefit of doubt by assuming they really want to but somehow could not) for such occassion, when would or could our players turn up? When they really feel like it on the pitch itself only? So subject to their whims and fancies on matchday?!

Or on a similar note, throwing away our slender lead over Arsenal as quickly as in a week when we should have forged ahead and cemented our pole position instead.

Or losing to bottom teams in the league when other top teams easily mauled them gleefully.

Or when we may be afraid to say we will surely beat Derby today because we may just have another bad day, the referee may not rule in our favour, luck may desert us once again etc?

Yes, I know it sounds logical to attribute negative results to all these extrinsic factors which are at least possible, if not probable. But is it really justifiable enough and thus exempt us conveniently and thoroughly? Or is it just the same old cliche of condoning and hiding behind lousy excuses to seek solace and refuge? I don't know, but to me, blowing hot and cold or unable to turn up when we know we should or losing to "smaller" teams etc can happen to a good team but just can't be the hallmark of a great team.

I have always suspected the key is in the mental makeup or psychology or even culture perhaps ie it is all in the mind, an intrinsic factor. To be more complete, I think the answer obviously lies at the end of the second paragraph. It has to be consistency coupled with the insatiable desires and an iron will. Only consistency over games, time and the manner of approach towards each game can iron out the extrinsic factors such as one of those days, bad refereeing, lack of luck etc in the long run, and only strong intrinsic factors can prevent the 'phenomenon' of "didn't turn up" or slipping up against "smaller" teams etc.

And intrinsic factors and consistency are both inter-linked and feed each other. You need strong intrinsic factors to generate consistency and you need consistency to sustain the intrinsics as a core value. Without any of the two, the vital chain will be broken.

Unfortunately, the current pay structure of the modern day footballers is not helping things too. I believe it has somewhat, at least, 'softened' the intrinsics of the players as compared to the older days when glory and honours are above money because money was not that 'prominent' to them then.....

Finally, given our quality we have but not exactly going places like we hope for, I would like to be bold to perhaps offer a clue. If most of our players share the same fire and desires of Tevez and Rooney on a consistent basis, we would be almost there... as a great team. The rest of the equation are just the titles and honours we will pick up along the way as rubber stamps to our greatness. And I have the hunch that slip-ups and nasty results will be very much a matter of blue moons only.
 

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Mancunian Red said:
I don't know what people mean by reality check may be it is just me being thick but if we kept winning we wouldn't need one and then we get one whenever a result did not go our way.
And surely the City game was the wake up call, we deserved to lose. Against Portsmouth we hammered them, one of the most one sided games I've seen - but that happens anyone remember Blackburn with Brad Friedel stopping us getting the desired win, and the 0-0 against Sunderland at OT a few years ago when Sunderland were on the way to being the worst premiership team. And of course Arsenal in the FA cup final when we lost on penalties.

It could have been 4 or 5 may be more against Portsmouth if we play that well until the end of the season I think you will see at least one trophy on the OT mantelpiece at the end of the season.
Yes, I think 'reality check' is the wrong turn of phrase in relation to the Portsmouth match as we did practically everything right in the match and could have one comfortably with any bit of luck at all.

However, I think the match will have a positive influence on the players, like a reality check, and that they will now be extra hungry to win in the remaining matches.
 

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versa said:
my next question is what really separates the winner from the also-ran then? Or what really separates a great team from a good team? And are we a great team?

A classic example is the emotional game against Citeh in conjunction with the commemoration of the Munich Disaster. After all the chest-pumping and war cries from staff and players alike, what we had instead was only a crying shame. And the explanation was the pathetic and infamous "we just didn't turn up." ?!
To answer the first bit in bold....its simple really. Trophies are the difference
between a good team and a great team. If we win the Prem and the CL this
season we will have to class this team great, and if we dont....then they are
good. I believe it is that black and white.

You mention the City game, which still pains me to talk about but I think that
whole week was emotionally draining for the players. As a fan I know it was
for me. Obviously we didnt get the result we wanted but sometimes you need
to look at the external factors and not just blame the players for 'not turning up'
Even wearing the old Busby Babes tribute shirts, hearing all the sad stories all
week, the wreath laying and minutes silence at the start. You could see why
their minds were not possibly on the job.....

It was a sad day but you can bet that nobody felt worse than the players.
Games will be lost here and there and we just need to move on.
Even this great Liverpool team of the 80's didnt always 'show up'.
They lost the odd game and drew a few that they should have won.
No team in the world can win EVERY game. Its impossible...
 

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the portsmouth loss was the kick up the backside the players needed,the most important trophy to me is the prem {i love being champions of our own country},then the champions league.
there was no way this utd team could win the 3,it ain't good enough or strong enough at the moment {but we have rapidly closed chelski down},but this loss should inspire us to the league.and on our day we can beat any of the opponents left in the champions league ,we are in for an interesting few weeks ,and im confident of winning one of them.
 
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