Manchester United Talk banner

1 - 17 of 17 Posts

·
Berbatov>Tevez
Joined
·
11,076 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
When a dive is not a dive ?

Kevin Thomson is fit for Rangers' UEFA Cup tie against Sporting Lisbon. I am so relieved because I thought he might be seriously injured. He took an awful clattering from Celtic's Georgios Samaras when he deliberately moved his leg to the side so that he could make minimal contact with the Celtic player before throwing himself to the ground.

In my non-expert opinion that incident was as clear a dive as you will ever see. I feel that the injury and the carrying off were simply to divert attention away from what he did.

Thomson understandably reacts angrily to a suggestion such as this:

“To call me a cheat and a diver is outrageous because that kind of thing is just not in my nature,†Thomson told the Daily Record.

“I've had a look at the incident again on TV and I can see why people are saying I was trying to win a foul. But that's not cheating. I had beaten Samaras with my first touch and I knew he was going to make contact with me. What was I supposed to do - jump out of his way?†he asked.

“If a striker is going through on a keeper and he knows he's going to get hit does he try to jump out of it or does he wait for the contact? That's not cheating or diving, that's just part of football. So I'd be very disappointed if people levelled those kind of accusations at me. I play the game with my heart on my sleeve - I'm not a con artist.â€

There is a whole debate to be had on whether you agree with Thomson's definition of cheating or not. Maybe it would be nice if players who could avoid contact did avoid it and then try to score a goal.But they don't need to.They are not ordered to avoid any contact. Especially not if the defending player is asking for it. There is a strong argument against that and the argument was supported when referee Steve Bennett didn't award a penalty to Manchester United when Rooney was clearly fouled by Carragher in the Liverpool game at Old Trafford, presumably because he stayed on his feet.Although Rooney did leave his foot a few years ago in that match against Le arse when we ended their unbeaten run. HE DIDN'T TRY TO AVOID A CONTACT. THAT'S NOT A DIVE IMHO.
This is where my problem lies. The Scottish FA has said that they are going to eradicate simulation from the game. They are going to use video technology to retrospectively punish any player who is found to have ‘dived'. They are pushing UEFA to follow suit across Europe.

I have sympathy with this standpoint as I'm sure all football lovers would do, but in practice I simply don't see how it will work.

Did Kevin Thomson dive on Saturday or not? I say he did but I'm sure that millions of football fans would disagree as well millions who would share my opinion. He went to ground because he was tripped, but he deliberately moved his leg in order that contact could be made. He did appear to be going down before he made that contact.

Dive or not?

Take the Wayne Rooney situation when he was tripped by Carragher. If he had gone to ground it would clearly have been a dive as he proved that he could avoid doing so. However, he was fouled. So if he had thrown himself to the ground would that have been simulation?

How would the authorities define ‘a dive'? In both of the cases I have mentioned it would appear that the player could have avoided going down, but contact, and therefore a foul, was committed. Simulation is defined as; ‘The act or process of simulating'. ‘An imitation; a sham'.' Assumption of a false appearance.' So falling over when you don't have to seems to fit the bill.

I would still ask if Thomson did, or Rooney would have done, anything wrong by making the contact obvious to the referee.

Then we come onto everybody's favourite subject of the moment. Cristiano Ronaldo. What a fantastic player this boy is. He is as good as anyone I have ever seen play the game but he is far from universally admired. Why is that? Because of his propensity to fall over fairly regularly in a game when he is breathed on by an opponent.

That is what most fans, other than Manchester United die hards, think. He certainly does seem to topple over fairly frequently I will admit. As a non-Manchester United supporter I have been occasionally heard to shout, “Get up you cheat,†at the television.

Again though, I would ask is Ronaldo actually diving or is he responding in a manner that simply makes the fact that he has been fouled obvious? Ronaldo arguably runs faster with the ball than any player in the world. Add to that the fact that his feet are as quick and tricky as any player in the world and you have a bit of a nightmare to defend against. If Ronaldo is running with the ball at full pace alongside a defender and he goes down I defy anybody to say categorically whether he was touched or not, and I don't care how many camera angles there are.

If Ronaldo is even lightly touched it may well be enough to affect his balance and lead to him falling. I simply don't know as even when at my peak in the Salisbury and District Sunday League I never quite had the pace of the Portuguese winger.

We all watch the incidents and some of them are very obvious. I remember Senderos taking a dive at Birmingham a few weeks ago. Not even the staunchest Gooner could have thought there was any contact. It was a good example as to why defenders should not attempt to join in this craze.

However, in a vast majority of cases it is not possible to be certain as to what actually definitively happened.

We must remember that by calling a dive we are calling the player a cheat. There is not much worse a player could be called. If we get it wrong that is a terrible slur on that player's character. At the start of this article I declared that I think Kevin Thomson is a cheat. If he isn't then what gives me the right to say it?

I completely agree with the thing in red... I added a thing in blue
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,814 Posts
CROoney from Dubrovnik said:
Kevin Thomson is fit for Rangers' UEFA Cup tie against Sporting Lisbon. I am so relieved because I thought he might be seriously injured.
Relieved???? Youfollow those scum?!!

I hope he hot injured forthat carry on!
 

·
Berbatov>Tevez
Joined
·
11,076 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
eoininho said:
Relieved???? Youfollow those scum?!!

I hope he hot injured forthat carry on!
no, no sorry mate - i copied an article from the net - my parts are only in blue
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,828 Posts
I know I am splitting hairs here, but if you know contact is coming and you brace yourself so that you wouldn't normally go down, but you go down anyway, isn't that still a dive?
 

·
Berbatov>Tevez
Joined
·
11,076 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
moondog said:
I know I am splitting hairs here, but if you know contact is coming and you brace yourself so that you wouldn't normally go down, but you go down anyway, isn't that still a dive?
well - it is all said in the article - in my opinion - it is not your duty to avoid contact - it is your duty to outsmart the oponent, so if he's so clumsy to stick his foot where he doesn't need to - why not taking advantage of it - it's not like there's no contact.. i know many English wouldn't agree on this but... it's how i think - the perfect example was ortega against stam at the WC 98 - stam left his foot - ortega didn't try to round it - he fell and the ref gave HIM a yellow - a bad decision imo...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,427 Posts
I hate diving. I respect Rooney for staying on his feet. Players should take that as an example. I do not care if a penalty could be won by diving, I just got that mentality, I just won't dive. When I play football I at all costs will stay on my feet no matter what. If I have no other option other than going to the ground then I will. I also don't roll around in pain unless it really really hurts. Maybe it is because I am used to street soccer playing in concrete lol

Okay I understand Cro's point that it was a foul on Rooney but it was not given since he did not go down. That I think was Bennett's fault. Ref's should learn that fouls are done also when players do not just go on the floor rolling around. We seriously need more examples and players like Rooney and we need the refs to wisen up.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,605 Posts
I hate divers - of any team, a blatant dive should be a red - whoever it is. In the case of Ronaldo we are splitting hairs. He goes down far too easily, yes, but he gets TAKEN down more than he FALLS down.

Now, there was a recent incident where he got fouled and fell, the referee played on - now IF the ref thought it had been a dive why didn't Ronaldo get booked - its one thing or other. Meaning, to my mind - the ref simply did not KNOW - so he gave nothing and played on.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,828 Posts
From Red Devil..

"Meaning, to my mind - the ref simply did not KNOW - so he gave nothing and played on."

That's the right call...if he isn't sure, he shouldn't call either.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,099 Posts
hmmm its a very hard question. its like the offside trap rule. controversial.

a ref may think what happen was a dive, another may think its not. how do we really differentiate this?

for me, i thought rooney should have been give a penalty when he didnt scored after being through. why a penalty? the contact from carragher clearly made him off balanced and you could see rooney was about to fall but just managed to remain. however, reina was able to come out in time to block the shot. however, it wasnt given, just because rooney stayed on his feet.

as for the point you made CROoney f.d. about ronaldo. i have to say it would make you off balance. i was playing for my class against another class in a match. i'm normally a full back or centre back. however due to problems i had to cover as striker. i can accelerate pretty fast but my speed isnt that fast. but though, i was running at full pace through on goal, when the opposing defender just manage to nudge me from the back and i flew and fell nearly touching the six yard box. (i got fouled just i entered the P box). i sustained a sprained wrist in the mean time too.

well, i do believe ronaldo. he run way faster than me. surely a little nudge would sent him flying. i do agree that he makes dives in the past. but definitely not now. every match when he does fall its clearly contact from opposing defenders. yet a foul is not given as the referees deem the touch as too light. thus, the media calls it a dive.

this kind of thing shall always be controversial. you can never clear it up. not every referees have the same wavelength on opinions. every referee have their different opinions. we can never differentiate between dives.
 

·
Berbatov>Tevez
Joined
·
11,076 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
i'm sorry Red Devil - we all more or less hate diving - but that is not the question...the question is - when do you threat a certain incident as a dive... thomson said it very clearly , and i agree with him - "what was he supposed to do ? avoid contact ? well - if the defender was careless, why should a striker be carefull,,,
btw - this is my 1000th post - parteeeeeeyyyyyy ! :p
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
248 Posts
A dive is not a dive when it's Cristiano Ronaldo cuz he's god :p

It's fairly easy to tell in a slow motion replay to be honest, usually contact is there anyway so there's a good chance most dives would get free kicks nevermind the dive.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,544 Posts
IMHO, a dive's not considered a dive when there's a defender from the opposition who come into contact with the supposed 'diver' in a situation where the former applied/exerted a force which cause the 'diver' failing to maintain its balance & throwing him off the ground subsequently...anyway, congratz on passing the 1000-posts landmark CRO!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,828 Posts
red_devils4life said:
IMHO, a dive's not considered a dive when there's a defender from the opposition who come into contact with the supposed 'diver' in a situation where the former applied/exerted a force which cause the 'diver' failing to maintain its balance & throwing him off the ground subsequently...anyway, congratz on passing the 1000-posts landmark CRO!
Well, he's on the blooming site all day!....just kidding cro! :D
 

·
Berbatov>Tevez
Joined
·
11,076 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
red_devils4life said:
IMHO, a dive's not considered a dive when there's a defender from the opposition who come into contact with the supposed 'diver' in a situation where the former applied/exerted a force which cause the 'diver' failing to maintain its balance & throwing him off the ground subsequently...anyway, congratz on passing the 1000-posts landmark CRO!
thanks mate ...appreciate it
 
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
Top